POLL: Who's worse: Shadow Thieves or Bodhi's vampires? *extreme plot spoilers*

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This discussion arose out of HB's latest BG2 game, but I don't want it to stuff up his thread anymore than we already have. It's also a good opportunity for a poll. Pick who you would side with if the rewards were equal.

Now, continuation from the thread for the purposes of further discussion:

I see it a different way; the Shadow Thieves (well, Aran anyway) never even ask you to do anything despicable.

Event 1:
Shadow Thieves - Help protect a shipment. Combat may not even be involved if you are not needed. Turns out you are and have to defend yourself, but...
Bodhi - Go steal a shipment. Combat may not be involved if you can sneak it, but it doesn't turn out that way.

Event 2:
Shadow Thieves - Go get information on the other guild's headquarters. Combat likely. Ends up with more combat than expected as you have to defend yourself again.
Bodhi (good) - Prevent the Shadow Thieves from getting information. Combat likely. Can even just kill him (one of their own) if need be.

Event 3:
Both - Exterminate the other guild. Killing vampires vs. killing humans, hmm...

But not if you ask the programmers. Keldorn and Mazzy will leave the party if you join Bodhi, but will only protest mildly if you join the Shadow Thieves. That alone quantifiably puts the Shadow Thieves as "less evil" than Bodhi. Thankfully though, there is a mod out there that gives you a third option for going to Spellhold which invloves working with the Amnish Guard if you're so morally opposed to helping the Thieves.

And am I the only one who had the vampires openly admit they were working for Bodhi? They even call her "Mistress", for crying out loud! I knew she was a vampire the first time through before I ever even met her.

*Buzz* Wrong. They try to kill you in the dungeon because they don't believe that you're telling the truth. Consider the examples of Yoshimo and that doppleganger, and I'd say they've got plenty of reason to be suspicious. Once you're outside the dungeon, they want to help you; though admittedly it's for their own selfish reasons, that just reinforces their NE-ness.

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 32 user(s) have voted.
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Poll Results: Who's worse: Shadow Thieves or Bodhi's vampires? *extreme plot spoilers* (32 votes.)

Who would you side with over the other? (Choose 1)
* Shadow Thieves - 88% (28)
* Bodhi - 13% (4)

 

The Shadow Thieves try and further their own cause, but don't hurt you.

Bodhi steals Imoen's soul. She 'helps' you so your soul can get stolen.

I choose the thieves.

 

Actually. Depending on which options you take. One of the things the thieves say is basically "We don't care. Kill them." And then they attack you. Even though you try to say you just want out of the place. Whether you have Yoshi in the group or not.

The second one it's not just go get information about the guild for Aran linvail's side. It's go deal with our members that are trying to leave and try and find out about the enemy guild while your at it.

Your sent to kill thieves trying to leave the thieves guild without a choice. You get the option if you do it right of impersonating them to the other guild for information.

Event two For Bodhi is either that you go and murder a man in the government district and place a shadow thieves cloak at the scene to frame them or you can go and Save one of Bodhi's Allies from the clutches of the Shadow Thieves. Depending on whether your willing to do something dispicable or not.

So these are different from the basic layout you give.

As for the Vampires. While they have referenced their mistress in my game at times. They've never directly said the name Bodhi to point things at Bodhi herself. Bodhi herself when you meet her in the graveyard presents herself as a more honest and forthright dealing partner than the shadow thieves which change the deal on you several times and refuse to reveal information to you when you ask up until your ready to get on the boat.

For others to know just in case part of what we were discussing in the other thread at one point was a stipulation of without the foreknowledge of what happens later in the game. i.e. that Irenicus stole Imoen's soul and put it in Bodhi for example. So we might give that some consideration as well as the overall stuff.

 

Bodhi is clearly more evil based on what happens later on in the game, but at the start, my opinion is that they both seem a bit shady and you really have no idea what they're up to at the time you have to choose between them.

 

That's why I said "combat likely"; it's not terribly probable that you're going to be able to talk them into coming back to the Shadow Thieves. It's about on the same level as infiltrating the Shadow Thieves to get the guy back; sure, you might be able to sneak past all those thieves to save the guy, but it's not terribly probable.

That's covered in "more combat than expected": I never thought you wouldn't be given any choices that allowed you to slip away from the contact. More programmer railroading.

Yeah, except Bodhi doesn't give a **** whether you save the guy or kill him. Either way, your objective of keeping the information from the Shadow Thieves has succeeded. I'm not saying the Shadow Thieves woudn't do it the same way, but don't try to make Bodhi look like a saint she isn't.

I did seem to leave the rescuing part out, though, didn't I?

Hmm. You may be right, but I know that Valen does refer to "my mistress, Bodhi". I guess I just put the pieces together.

 

Putting the pieces together regarding whether or not Bodhi is a vampire is incredibly simple. The vampires, fighting the Shadow Thieves, mention their mistress. When the Shadow Thieves win (you basically have to help them), they make sure you know which side to join. The opposite, by way of the fighting and the comments afterwards, is made clear. The nature of the opponent to the Shadow Thieves in those fights is also clear. When Bodhi approaches you as an alternative and antithesis to the Shadow Thieves, her vampiric nature should be glaringly apparent.

In my opinion, any argument that a PC of average intelligence with similar companions can not know Bodhi is a vampire is absurd. But I will own that this does not make the Shadow Thieves any better. One might argue that Bodhi could be a less evil vampire than is typical of vampires and that the PC might be under this assumption. Unless you are playing a naive PC with the mental capacity of a small infant, this is not likely but let's go with it. If one arbitrarily assumes Bodhi is good at heart, then there is no strong objection to assuming the same of the Shadow Thieves. If a vampire can be moral, so can a thief but a thief, by his nature, is only opposed to law whereas a vampire is an affront to nature. So to assume that Bodhi is good, one must also assume that the Shadow Thieves are good and thus the choice becomes this: do you pick the group who uses questionable means to achieve a good end or do you pick the group that is a literal, physical abomination?

This leads to some interesting character choices. A Paladin (or any lawful good character), for instance, could not under any circumstance side with either the Shadow Thieves of Bodhi. Both groups are utterly irredeemable to a Paladin. The only option he has is to seek out his Order and take their council. I am reasonably convinced that council would consist of neither joining a nefarious group of thieves or an underground group of vampires in opposite to that thieves guild (which implicitly states that the vampires are themselves thieves but that's besides the point). A Paladin would be left with no option to getting to Spellhold in the unmodded game. They are both morally degenerate in some way. Some characters have the leisure of picking the lesser of the two but the Paladin does not.

Felinoid, where is this mod that allows working with the Amnish Guard? I would most definitely like to play it.

 

Vampires are unnatural and evil.

Thieves can be good, neutral, or evil.

Don't play innocent unless you're truly feebleminded (well, I guess your character is, if you're capable of roleplaying like that). With all the random run-ins in which you see a vampire or two decimating/charming a thief, you -have- to know that these vampires are the other guild (with which the Shadow thieves are at war). Given that Bodhi, when you meet with her, is intent upon belittling the shadow thieves, stacked on with the evidence that Valen calls her "mistress", it's apparent that Bodhi is the leader of the vampiric guild. Besides, when all but Korgan and Anomen protest allying with the woman, it's clear that your NPCs are sensing an amazing level of evil from her.

Even with that analysis, both options are at least somewhate evil. However, I'm enjoying the Saerileth mod, which gives a much more morally-satisfying route to Spellhold.

 

Zenastin, is Saerileth the mod that Felinoid was alluding to that allows you to ally with the guard? Or perhaps that mod is still something different.

 

Valen is actually quite careful not to name her mistress. If you ask her who her mistress is, she won't tell, and says "all will be discussed in proper course".

I agree with HB that both groups appear evil when you have to make the decision, but its also pretty obvious that the "rival guild" is composed of vampires - making the thieves the lesser evil.

 

I don't recall Valen being in any of the fights that take place. There are a few where the Shadow Thieves attack the vampires. And there are even a couple where you get attacked because you might be aligned one way or another by both sides. None of it is of anything good. Half the Characters complain no matter what you do.

Keldorn and certain others belittle the shadow thieves every chance they get. Keldorn even sounds like he's ready to threaten to leave when you join the shadow thieves.

Much in the game tells you the shadow thieves are using you purely for themselves and not for "a greater good in the end". Even Bodhi points it out and part of just how. Which the thieves only barely admit to at best. You ask a Druid anything that is not nature is at least partly un-natural. But Cernd doesn't seem to have too big of a problem siding with Bodhi. Though if I recall he does say something about it.

though bringing foreknowledge into play. I like bodhi's side in the un-modded game because I get to take out both evil immoral and unethical organizations and truely clean up Athlatka for a time until somebody manages to fill the gap. Since neither group actually proves to have a saving grace. Specially if you consider that both sides get you in touch with Saemon and with their contacts and knowledge of each other. As well as the shadow thieves far reaching numbers. They both had to know that Saemon was going to hand you over to the vampires when you get to Brynnlaw.

 

@Aahz:
I can't seem to find it. But the only places I know are SP, Pocket Plane Group, Black Wyrm Lair, RPG Dungeon, Gibberlings 3, Chosen of Mystra, & SpellHold Studios. Either it's somewhere around one of those sites or I'm remembering something incorrectly.

No, Saerilith is an NPC mod; her quest just gets you to Spellhold, I think.
..................................................

Even so, calling Bodhi 'her mistress' in the exact same tone as the other vampires ought to give you a small hint. (I suppose I just mentally add "Bodhi" to every reference now that I've played it so much. *sigh* I really am a lot better at this when I check these things first, but I couldn't find Valen's dialogue file.)
..................................................

(However, I was able to find Bodhi's file easily enough.) Cernd doesn't say a thing in your initial conversation with Bodhi. Jaheira, OTOH, doesn't like her, but that can be waived off as her inappropriate goodness.

Wait, which side are you rooting for again? I'm not about to call anyone evil for attacking undead without further provocation. Being undead is both evil and unnatural, and as any paladin will tell you, they're fair game for anyone.

Well duh. I'm not arguing that the Shadow Thieves are good, just "less evil".

Again, less evil! Keldorn will threaten to leave no matter who you pick (as he should), but he will only leave if you pick Bodhi. Would he leave because of moderate evil but total depravity is okay? starwalker, meet logic; logic, meet starwalker.

[ February 14, 2006, 02:47: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Felinoid: I'll do some checking around and post here if I find it.

Starwalker, while foreknowledge allows you to eliminate both evils, it also removes the roleplaying aspect because your character does not have such advantage.

And while some characters may allow the thieves or Bodhi or whatever, their actions don't necessarily illustrate what your response should be based on whatever alignment or ethics system you're roleplaying. I still contend that a Kantian Paladin could not side with either and would remain completely uninvolved other than perhaps reporting both to the authorities, not that it would do any good as I'm sure the authorities know of both the Shadow Thieves and Bodhi's guild.

 

yeah. but my character doesn't have the advantage to know that Bodhi is just so unholy evil either. Not unless I'm playing something like a paladin. Which I agree with you in that they wouldn't work with either group.


As for Saerileth.

http://www.gilalion.com/saerilethmod.htm

Or you can go and find her on Dragons Hoard. Most of the way down the page.

 

Yeah, when you talk to Bodhi she is pretty polite and persuasive. I don't think it's much of a stretch for your character to be seduced by that charm at that stage in the game.

 

@ Starwalker:

What character are you playing? While it is conceivable that some characters might not distinguish between holy and unholy, surely your character knows that vampires aren't natural and something is gravely amiss with Bodhi.

I do have Saerileth but I don't think I've ever played her. I downloaded the mod but never started a party that decided to use her. Does she allow another path to Spellhold?

@ Harbourboy:
I think I must disagree with believing the characters could be seduced by her charm. If I remember correctly, one of your PCs responses is something along the lines of "I do not trust the other group but you are very, very creepy." As if that is not enough, your PC has the option to often comment on the strangeness of the meeting place and on Bodhi's appearance. Even before meeting Bodhi, the PC notices something wrong with Valen as the PC has the option of asking if Valen is sick because she is so pale. The PC surely realizes how "creepy" Bodhi is.

@ Felinoid:
At G3 I found the Amnish Centurion method of getting to Spellhold ( The Third Way) but it is still in development.

 

I love how Sime just stands there like a lemon when you get ambushed by vampires at Brynnlaw.

Personally I hate both sides and don't see what the big deal is about locating Spellhold. The Cowled Wizards have innumerable agents in Athkatla, there should be some way to find out where the asylum is and get there under your own steam, but instead you have to arbitrarily play patsy to one of these two groups.

The vampires are worse than the thieves, for reasons already explored in more than enough detail here. I'm not convinced that the protagonist is bright enough to figure out the vampire connection by the time you encounter Bodhi, but I was, so I take the thieves in my 'good' playthroughs, even though they basically hang you out to dry twice as bad as Bodhi's cohort does.

 

Yes, Saerileth allows another path to spellhold. It is not involved with the Amnish guard; but it is involved with a certain order of knights.

 

@ Zenastin:
Excellent. I will have to try that out then. Thanks.

 

Good Laeven, you people type fast. Seven posts before I finished my edit?!? Bah, go read it at your leisure.

@Aahz:
/me sighs with relief
Good to know I haven't gone completely yet; thanks for finding it.

EDIT: (please don't post five times before I finish this one too )
Even with foreknowledge, I don't think it's wise to try to hit both. Think about it; if you side with the Shadow Thieves, you clear out Bodhi's lair of vampires twice. But if you side with Bodhi, you only clear it out once. Now where do you think those other vampires that you didn't clear out the first time went? Do you think they all just decided to kill themselves because you wouldn't do it for them? Instead of destroying two evils, you're setting an even worse evil loose upon the land. All those lesser vampires, scattering to the four winds to kill and convert others and start it up all over again. At least the thieves have balances in the law-makers; vampires aren't checked by anything other than adventurers.

 

Anyone who isn't IMMEDIATELY creeped out at meeting some "mistress" in a GRAVEYARD at NIGHT should have their brains examined. Graveyard .... night ... Keldorn, Anomen, what's likely to be intelligent and prefer only the night and haunt graveyards, hmm? Any sane illegal HUMAN organization will base itself in the midst of other people more than not. That was such a dead giveaway even from my very first game. In fact, it was so obvious I went out of my way to avoid the GY for many games and it took me a long time to discover there were some minor quests started there (that was when I got around to actually reading a walk-through to see what stuff I missed). Now at least I know just not to let my cash level go over 20k while outside till I want it to anyhow.