POLL: Who's worse: Shadow Thieves or Bodhi's vampires? *extreme plot spoilers*

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Shadow Thieves for me, especially since I only side with Bodhi to get the Rifthome throwing ax. Oh, and the fact the she introduces herself twice is unnerving.

 

Well I used to work for SThieves.

then I installed Rogues Re-balancing mod which said it would make Sthieves fight interesting and tough, just the kind of thing I was looking for. Although Imp. Bodhi was definitely a human shredder, I already knew her tricks, so I sided with her in my last run.

IMHO, vampires only kill to feed. SThieves kill and torture for personal gain. They rob innocent citizens, threaten them, and cause lot os problems. They are equally evil, and I guess my char wanted to get rid of them both, so he chose siding with Bodhi for the moment, though from her creepy nature he guessed that sooner or later he will come into blows with Bodhi too. (18+ INT and WIS)

Result:BOTH vampires and thieves exterminated. I guess it is the best way.

 

Vampires are evil undead creatures. They're far more indiscriminate with their killing than the thieves because they hate the living. They enjoy watching people suffer, as per Bodhi in Spellhold.

The 'work for the vampires to wipe out both groups' idea holds no water unless your protagonist is prescient. A good PC has no business working with Bodhi's cadre to begin with, unless he's too dense to realise they're vampires prior to signing up with them.

 

I side with The Shadow Thieves as they are the lesser of the evils, there are enugh clues as to Bodhi's nature and its unnaturalness. "Come, give us just a taste" springs to mind anyone living in FR would undertsand that one and act accordingly.

 

Yes I guess a PC with moderate intelligence should understand the nature of Bodhi!s guilt.

However, doing Bodhi's quests need not to be evil. There are semi-good, less bloody options as well. So I guess game designers didn'T intend to force all good players side with SThieves and vice versa.

 

Well the argument that a good PC has nothing to do with Siding with Bodhi to begin with is actually as folly with the Shadow Thieves. The Shadow Thieves are a widely known very evil organization if you get into the table top boxed set of the Area. Which means Good characters won't side with them either.

I'll give something to help this from the Forgotten Realms Boxed Set:

"The Shadow Thieves are a wide-ranging guild of thieves, spies, and assassins who perform particularly dangerous, EVIL-ALIGNED, and lucrative ventures. Their activities , unlike those of most thieving guilds, are not limited to a single city, and they range the length of the Sword Coast from Luskan to Calimport."

These lines are particular to saying no matter how un-natural Bodhi is by a person's thinking that in the minds of a Good Aligned group the Shadow Thieves are no less evil. Specially when their own concern is ridding themselves of the threat to them. Two evil entities and I'm sorry, Other than the Paladin argument which I agree would not side with either, But Bodhi presents herself better if you have to deal with two evil Groups. A more forthright group is going to look better for dealing with than one that outright manipulates you and refuses to share anything. Even if a deductive mind says that it's not necessarily smarter. Then again a deductive mind says your being manipulated either way and you can't win with either group and they are both going to do something to you.


I do think it is Minsc that says that. But I did a party of Minsc, Cernd, Jan, Aerie(My Romance and complained about both), Edwin(who complains horribly about both), and my Wizard Slayer Character. They Sided with Bodhi. no more. No less. No worse complaints than what you get from most EVERY character when you side with the thieves. It's just a couple don't leave with the thieves. Though they realistically and RP wise should leave you.

All I needed was Jaheira and if I was going to have a party complain about her un-naturalness and this would have been it.

What hangs out in the graveyard at night? Well besides Wannabe Goth's for atmosphere. I always run into thieves at night in the graveyard. Since that seems to be when I end up looting it most. Ghosts are a good bet. Since that's when the ghost boy is usually easiest to find. Don't recall any Vampire attacks in it however. So I guess Vampires only like Graveyards in Buffy and LARP games. Then again most vampire legends aren't tied to graveyards anyway. just to coffins.

As for if you don't kill Vampires in the second Chapter. There are only 3 named vampires with different names in the Chapter 2 scenario. Everything else is un-named or Tanova. It's easy to assume they got killed by something while you were in the Underdark.

Vampires being descriminate or indescriminate in their killing is controversial at best. Depending on your source and what's going on and the context your put in. HOwever they are rather more descriminate in their killing than the shadow thieves are in the game. There are more chances into getting the vampires not to attack you than there are with the thieves.

And I still stand that the thieves knew and purposely put you into the Hands of Saemon and thus attacked by Bodhi's minions. They were just trying to get rid of you now that they got what they wanted and you seemingly solved their Guild War and bettered their position. Afterall your not a member and you know way too much about them.

A fast and realistic way to get yourself sent to Spellhold in the game that was always open in my opinion should have been the same exact way that Imoen and Irenicus got there. They didn't care what part they played or anything but if you were involved and supposedly used magic they seemed to take everybody. A good way to spellhold and a very different one should have been to have the Cowled Wizards send you. And then given you other options while they were at it. Such as the Shadow Thieves or Bodhi if you buy the magic Lisence. But instead they Railroad you to two unbelievably evil groups to get there. Toss your dice against the wall a thousand times and realistically while in the Game Bodhi is far more represented as an evil horrible creature that does many bad things to your group and Imoen. the Shadow Thieves are no better and without fore-knowledge of what's going on. Including the fact that Bodhi is the Queen of the Vampires. Pale or not. (Which is arguable about how much that is an undeniable indicator since I am almost pale enough to glow in the dark in RL). She presents herself better and offers up a lot more information up front. Which can look a lot more appealing when your dealing with a group that's already spying on you. Has tried to kill you. And Quite Visibly can't keep their house in order and instead of just coming to you to help them fix it outright obviously manipulates you to get what you want done when asking just the right way could have gotten the group to eagerly agree to help. Since the spying thing comes out BEFORE you get to meet Bodhi. Her Excuse that meeting in the graveyard is to keep the meeting private and unoverheard is made Drastically more Realistic. But the Graveyard isn't revealed as the hiding spot until AFTER you pick one of the groups to side with.

@Prine. On the Matter of Bodhi loving to torture you in Spell hold. I point to her thieving equal in Mae'Var. most of the times you talk with him he's enjoying himself with torturing somebody that hasn't really done anything to him.

 

Renal has Mae'Var killed because he's a maverick and a whacko.

Nonsense. Both groups are bad, but vampires are chaotic and evil by nature; all vampires are aligned evil. Not all thieves are. Write another huge-ass post if you like, but that's the long and the short of it, and that's why the thieves are the lesser of two evils. Vampires have no choice of alignment, the nature of their existence prompts them to perform evil acts. Thieves can be good, neutral or evil, varying from thief to thief. 'Nuff said.

The fact that they're vampires is a total freaking no-brainer and not even worth arguing over, IMO. They have no compunctions about using their powers in front of you. What transforms into a bat or mist, hunts humans at night, drinks blood and hangs around crypts? Gee...

Seriously, you can side with whoever you like, but if you're trying to legitimise a good-aligned character picking vampires over thieves as the lesser of two evils then I call BS.

 

Call BS. Shadow Thieves are evil. People know it. they do evil jobs. Doesn't matter what thieves can be. Shadow thieves are evil. It's an undeniable part of what they do. Even if thieves can be other things. Shadow Thieves are evil. Talk about No Brainer. The Shadow thieves have no more problems doing their dirty deeds in front of you than the Vampires do. Don't need a long post. Shadow Thieves aren't the lesser of two evils. That's like Saying a Black Dragon is the lesser of Two Evils when compared to a Liche because the Dragon is Natural and Dragons can have other alignments while the Liche isn't and normally doesn't.

 

Yes, the shadow thieves are evil. It's been said many times and I agree. I'm saying that they're less evil than vampires, if for absolutely no other reason than because they at least have the *capacity* to not do evil, which is something vampires do not have. But I guess I've more than said my piece. A man convinced against his will...

 

Which reminds me, have you checked the in-game alignment of some Shadow Thieves?

I bet most of the assasins are evil, but there are also neutral and (abeit very rarely) good ones?

IIRC, the chick thief Mook who is important in both ST and Bodhi quests, who guards the shipments in docks, she is GOOD aligned. She even asked my PC 'why do you work for Sthieves, aren'T you too heroic for that? or something like that, since my rep was too heroic I guess, and I answered back that it was a step to more heroic deeds, she was glad to play a small role in my drama; unfourtunately then she got drained by a vampire quick.

So there are GOOD thieves in Sthieves, but even they do know that Sthieves is an EVIL organization.

What do you think?

 

Well, the one time I finished off the whole thing? Went with the Shadow Thieves.

Let's see:
1) we start off with the ST fighting my captor - "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" True they attack you, but they don't KNOW you, and can't trust you yet.

2) Choice time: I can side with a known illegal organization of mortals - not all of which are evil - who may have some hope of redemption from their unlawful ways,
or I can side with a shadowy, secretive group (the ST try to be, but come on, everyone knows about the Cosa Nostra too ) that hangs around nocturnally away from as much civilization as possible. "Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't."

3) you later discover Bodhi's gang to be undead - invariably EVIL undead. An affront to nature, law, order, good, and everrything nice and fluffy. And sadly, the only redemption (unless Joss Whedon is involved) a vampire can find is in it destruction. "The only vampire is a staked vampire."

It's 3-0 Shadow Thieves. Mind you, my paladin PC forsook the divinity and I like to think he went back and did a lot of 'reforming' in the Shadow Thieves after the game.

 

That depends on the age of the dragon, but you've brought up another point for our side:
A weaker "absolute evil" can be considered a lesser evil, and at the point in the game when you have to choose, Bodhi has the Shadow Thieves on the run. I'd rather weaken the strong one and leave the two now-even evils to battle it out (leaving the populace alone for the most part), than destroy the weaker one and let the strong one, stronger yet, freely wreak havoc while I'm gone.

I hate to bring up paladins again, but even the Order would appreciate letting evil destroy itself (or another evil).

 

Shadow Thieves: First off you worked with the Shadow Thieves in BG and they directed you to the location of Saverok. They do live up to their end of the bargin, but we can expect some chores before the service is paid.

Bodhi: Don't know who she but evil is sensed by those who are holy, if they are in your group.

Who's worse - would be Bodhi...

I believe there should be a third path to take for the LG characters.

 

On paladins, you may find this rather old posting interesting. I don't agree with what most people said, but it links nicely with this topic.

Take a look.

 

I would definitely say the lesser of the two evils is the Shadow Thieves. Vampires=Evil in my books. I looked at the thief alignments on SK and most of them are True Neutral, probably because they weren't a significant enough part of the game to bother giving decent alignments to. Aran Linvail seems to be a good guy, but he's True Neutral. What I mean is, he seems quite good-natured, warm and welcoming when you speak to him, yet he's neutral. I reckon he should be Chaotic Good.

As for another path for (lawful) good characters to take, something to do with the Temple of Lathander or the Order of the Radiant Heart would be cool.

 

And the file of your mother is all marked as human if I recall from another thread where that came up. Most of the options for talking to Aran aren't even really following a good alignment. You have to threaten the guy to get anything out of him and that for BG2 is rather stupidly run through the game with Threaten=Evil in BG2.

Even without that though. I would myself put Aran as a Lawful Evil character if I myself had to assign him an Alignment. He's manipulative. Even as far as the law of his own organization and the laws of the city are concerned. Live inside them enough to protect himself but bend them as he is able to serve his own ends.


There is also the problem that I've pointed out that Bodhi is good natured and welcoming and even forthright and honest. The mysterious assassin's guild is only what you get from Aran Linvail and his group which its concievable is tainted by the fact that the game makes it repeatedly obvious the shadow thieves are manipulating you. If it's a valid reason for why Aran Linvail and the Shadow Thieves are the lesser of two evils why is it so blanketly damning for for vampires just because they are un-natural?

As for the Black Dragon and the Liche. In many adventurers mind had they had to choose which one is more evil. I'm not sure they'd pick one over the other without knowing a lot more. But an adult or more Black Dragon is usually a match for any liche and could have already lived longer. maybe I'm the only one but I'd seriously consider the Liche to possibly be the easier victory if it were table top. Primarily because there is no force casting and the liche while powerful is just an undead mage.


the Thread that Aldeth brings up is actually good. There are only two problems I can see in it without tossing the whole thread in to rehash it.

In PnP 2nd Edition a Paladin will not party or work with a known evil character. While you can have an evil character in the party they have to avoid being Detect Evil'd by said paladin or doing to many evil acts or you'll lose one or the other. Perhaps with a fight. The other thing is Turning on an Ally is against the Honor Code of a Paladin. It's not a lawful or a Good act. So a Paladin as we've said many times wouldn't work with either group.


Now i'm not sure if this is in the game write up. I never honestly bothered to look because you can't make an all good party and the best cleric in the game is sadly evil until you redeem her in ToB. I tend to pretend she's in a grey category until I can change her alignment despite being drow. This is stuffed under the henchmen strangely if you consider each red line in the second edition book a new little piece instead of it all being a full write up with important sentences pointed out at the beginning of paragraphs. anyway.

"A Paladin will cooperate with characters of other alignments as long as they behave themselves. He will try to show them the proper way to live through both word and deed. The Paladin realizes that most people simply cannot maintain his high standards. Even thieves can be tolerated, provided they are NOT EVIL and are SINCERELY trying to REFORM. He will not abide the company of those who commit evil or unrighteous acts. Stealth in the cause of good is acceptable, though only as a last resort."


now I know at first glance that this looks in favor of the shadow thieves and even Paladin's siding with them. However it's not. The Shadow Thieves are an evil organization. The Authorities would know this. The Order of the Radiant Heart would most certainly know this. That's one reason why a paladin couldn't. The other thing is that thieves have two stipulations that BOTH have to be met for a Paladin to work with them. They have to be trying to reform. The Shadow Thieves are in no way trying to reform. They are even manipulating you to their own gain and their own thieving ends. This is made obvious in the game even if we don't allow base assumptions.

If we do allow base assumptions yes this does mean your allowed to make a connection that the Vampires work for Bodhi and Bodhi is a vampire(Actually if we strictly stick to the later storyline she's not entirely a vampire. The Curse did not entirely work on her because of what was done to her by the Elven Gods. This is all directly pointed out by Irenicus in spellhold I believe as "An Attempt on her part to try and undo what has been done to us." That's easy to assume the curse of vampirism doesn't work properly on her in some fashion. Then again Vampires were supposedly first made by a ritual and that's a new one on me. But certainly plausable in a world full of magic. The movie makers have used it enough in the last 5 years or so.)

But it also makes blindingly clear the the thieves have no intention of reform. They are manipulating you heavily and little from their mouths can be trusted.

It's all to convenient of them in their help of you. Which mostly seems based around the idea that you survived long enough for you to be a useful pawn.

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner but we should think about this. The Thieves we talk to and mention lack of trust(Their unwilling to bother that's obvious considering they attack no matter what.) But you actually deal with several thieves before that conversation that all attack you indescriminately. They don't say a word about it. you just get out of Irenicus lair that they seemed to know all about and they too conveniently to show up to help. You get told their spying on you. If you press the issue they only barely and begrudgelingly admit to it, then they scoot you on your way if you don't have the gold collected to pay them at this time with nothing more than a "that woman you were contacted by can't be trusted." If you do go meet bodhi she's honest. Answers several of your questions and tells you as much if not more about what's going on than the thieves do. Certainly she betrays you with Saemon. Even tries to kill you later when you've served your purpose. What Villan doesn't usually try this if their evil? Reguardless if their un-natural or not.

The Thieves are all to ready to send you to spell hold in the first place. They are the ones that go back on their word when you side with them and go "oh no. we can't go. but we'll send you. Just help us first. Do our dirty deeds our way." The whole thing screams setup. Either they don't think you can do it and you'll rot in spellhold or they are sending you there to die by something. Neither choice sounds pretty and they act with overbearing for knowledge and direction steering in the main storyline.


I'm sorry but with all this and saying that There is no way Bodhi can even be even with them in Evil or even be less so at least in the early part of the game without for Knowledge appear as the better choice just strikes me as a rather blind way to look at things and a decision made before ever actually looking at what's really going on.

 

Well, one could argue that you're not supposed to get anything out of him. The whole game is predicated on playing the part of the pawn.

I do agree that Aran is LE (there's no way he could have risen through the ranks unless he was evil), but Bodhi is CE, which is even worse.

The comeliest evil is the most dangerous; Satan himself is said to be the smoothest talker you can imagine. Bodhi looks prettier and talks prettier, but her motives are still shrouded; I'm not naive enough to trust someone who heads an underground organization but thinks nothing of blurting out their business. (She even admits to being Irenicus's sibling before sending you off! ) When you expect everything they say to be a lie, one can be much more comforted by silence than an exposition. Hearing things that sound good makes one wonder what they're covering, and hearing things that sound bad make you wonder how much worse the truth could be...

That's why I said it depends on the age of the dragon. A young one might get beaten by the lich, while an older one probably wouldn't have a problem with it.


Regarding paladins: Yes, they wouldn't side with either group. But they would side against either group. There ought to be a way to ask the Order for help, but as it is, paladins get screwed.

OR they are again wanting you to do their dirty work for them. Why waste their numbers going after Irenicus when they've been conveniently provided with someone who has both the motive and means to do it for them?

I have absolutely no clue what you mean by that. What word are they breaking; what promise did they make?

 

Starwalker, in considering what the thieves intend to do by sending you to Spellhold (to rot or die, as you say), you paint them much worse than Bodhi but what about Bodhi's ultimate plans for you? She plans to hand your soul over to Irenicus and take Imoen's soul for herself, all under the guise of helping you find Imoen. Now the aim of this thread originally was to decide which option looks less evil from the characters standpoint when he is forced to make that decision but it has become a discussion of the nature of the two groups and their leaders and so we cannot disregard Bodhi's ultimate goals.

Now while sending you to Spellhold to die or to at least fail in your mission (if you indeed wish to assume that is their goal) is indeed underhanded and certainly not a good act but how can it even compare with Bodhi's plan to remove you from your soul and then leave to kill you herself. Not only is she more direct in her dealings with you, as you said (though you fail to mention how direct she is in your supposed extermination), but she takes your soul first. Is that not a wee bit worse than sending you on a fool's errand that, might I remind you, the PC wants to take to begin with? If we are considering each group and leader as they are, I don't see how there can be any question as to which is the more horrid. And as further testimony, as if any was needed, the Shadow Thieves can be relied on later in the game to help you with Bodhi if you've helped them with Bodhi. They do prove a reliable friend in some manner of speaking. I don't think the same can be said of Bodhi.

 

Bodhi's vampires. That such purposive evil is honest and eloquent about its desires does not make it better. Besides, she's lying through her teeth to you. She and her crew don't only kill to feed, anyway - Bodhi wants power enough to achieve her ends in the city (as do her thralls, presumably, which is one of the lures used against the Shadow Thieves), and does anyone remember the spike room?

One of the NPCs (Keldorn, IIRC) says that although he thinks it's good that the Shadow Thieves are under pressure, he has no illusions about their rivals being any better. Sure, the Shadow Thieves aren't exactly good people, but they're business-people first and murderers later. For her part, Bodhi says something like "There is a monopoly in this town, and I intend to break it". She wants it all, plain and simple.

A truly "good" PC would want to find a path to Spellhold through legitimate means, whether through the Cowled Wizards or the Athkatla administration (not the Council, though, unless you had no choice). Since no such option exists - the magistrate tells you she has no jurisdiction, the CWs don't care - you have to take what you have. The morality of choosing between thieves and vampires has never presented me or my good PCs with a problem.

I'm sorry, but that's BS. For starters, you know only what they've let you know, and really, all you know is that Aran Linvail is in charge, not Renal Bloodscalp, and where he is currently lairing. That could undoubtedly change easily, and is probably one of the ways your money is being spent. Either that or change the locks.

If they really wanted you dead, why not have Aran Linvail organise a fatal "accident" for you when you see him after clearing out the graveyard, or even collapse the entrances to the tombs behind you? Besides, you may be useful later - and you are, as it turns out. They paid Saemon to get you to Brynnlaw because no-one else was willing to do it; Saemon was swayed in that regard by his own associates.

 

Bodhi tells you what she needs you to know. Some of what she tells you is truth. The other half of the truth is that she intends for both you and Imoen to be used and to die. Don't confuse acting good-natured and telling half-truths with being honest, because if Bodhi was honest with you about her nature and her intentions from the moment you first spoke with her then no one with half a brain would ever side with her.

The black dragon/lich analogy is apt, not because one is natural and the other is unnatural, but because chromatic dragons are always aligned evil, and because liches *can* be aligned neutral or good if they were non-evil wizards in life.

I'm sorry, but what does this stuff about paladins have to do with the price of fish? Yeah a paladin wouldn't work for the shadow thieves, is the implication that they *would* work for vampires? Or are we just reiterating the 'both groups are evil' idea for the hundredth time? Did anyone ever, at any stage, argue that the thieves were good and that a paladin would actually willingly work for them, or is this another straw man?

And the stuff about the shadow thieves trying to kill you by sending you to Brynnlaw is just ridiculous. Why not have Sime kill you herself on the way there, or scuttle the ship during the journey? Why send her at all? She's a high level thief; if it were a token gesture or a trick then Aran would have sent someone expendable. Obviously he doesn't care what happens to you once you get into Spellhold, but it makes no sense for him to dispatch one of his own agents if he'd actively wanted you dead and at the same time known you'd be ambushed by vampires at Brynnlaw, as you suggest.

It's pretty obvious that you're making stuff up to try and make the thieves appear more actively malicious than they really are. What's obvious from the events of the game is that the thieves care relatively little for the protagonist, beyond having him do their grunt work and then getting him out of their hair. Anything beyond that is complete speculation. You don't need speculation to know Bodhi's motives, because they're made perfectly obvious by the game itself.