POLL: Jaheira extension - for/against

Remove all ads!

What annoys me much in the saga is that Jaheira's effective performance in dialogues and plot is way above her INT & WIS stats that I believe were set for game balance. Also the Neutral Good alignment she had in BG1 (against d&d 2 rules, possible in 3rd edition) has only changed 'on paper' while she de facto acts NG.

As we aren't really fanatics of game balance (heheh, here, on SP?) and most of us actually do care about roleplaying I would like to ask you all what you think of the idea of a mini-mod that would deal with this and introduce a small plot extention regarding the ties between PC, Jaheira and Minsc, the BG1 trio soon after they leave Chateau Irenicus aka Irenicus's Dungeon. It's been planned in some detail and technical work is to start in February. So, good/bad?

[ January 14, 2003, 01:55: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 21 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Jaheira extension - for/against (21 votes.)

Jaheira extension - for/against (Choose 1)
* Yea - 76% (16)
* Nay - 24% (5)

 

Its Khalid not Jahiera that is NG. She is (T)N in all games. Even with the helmet of opposite aligment.

 

This may be a matter of patch, but some people have her NG.

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG/info.php#j

Baldur's Gate Encyclopaedia
J
Jaheira - Neutral Good, female, half-elf, fighter/druid, found at the Friendly Arm Inn on the first floor, loyal and good companion, also a member of the Harpers. The Harpers are a clandestine organization for good in the realms. Members include Elminster (founder) and others including the late Gorion.

[ January 14, 2003, 02:00: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]

 

Should be a choice you can have in the romance with her, an alignment change depending on how things work out. Anyway, I really cant think of a single time she's acted "True Neutral", lol. She's always trying to do the right thing, regardless of social structure, she belives in balance but that no amount of good will upset it. She's clearly Neutral Good in my eyes.

 

Who would vote no? I mean really, who would say no to a potential new mod? If someone would, then they would hardly be interested in BG2 anyway.

It's a good thing someone else noticed that she does in fact act for good. This becomes all the more clearer when you play an evil protagonist. IIRC, she actually says it herself at some point that she'll not continue with your PC if they don't make a change for better (that is, good).

Anyway, I'd ask you to insert Imoen as well to that list of good ol' BG1-characters. Make the dialogue for inbetween all 4 of them. Might be that this was the plan to begin with but I'm just wanting to make sure.

Otherwise, gl & hf and all that. And thanks for giving me hope of a new good mod.

 

You've got to realize that the stats cannot stand for everything. Even though her INT isn't that high, it doesn't mean she can't speak very well and have interesting dialogues. Not everything can be measured according to those six particular stats. It's like saying just because someone knows a lot, they must be very smart.

But yes, Jaheira still knows TOO much - for her WIS/INT. How does she know SAT words like "platitude" when she hasn't ever gone to school?

 

Well I'm at a loss as to which direction and how much you wish her stats to change. But of course it should come out as obvious that the nature of the person in question can determine quite much as well. The dialogue can be exactly the same with a int 10 wis 10 char, as with a int 14 wis 14 char. Only the information and understanding the REALLY have without necessarily bringing it out, would be different.

Hardly every int 18 character uses as much over-civilized fancy words as possible. The difference is the same as a stern paladin a versus a happy and easy-going bard, both having the same charisma of 16 for example. They appear completely different, as their charisma works differently and for slightly different purposes. Same with wisdom. Someone might speak of very wise things, but in the end would not possess the inner wisdom of a more silent and refrained individual.

 

Generally, I meant NG as restoring her original alignment, more like 3ed, from BG1. However, I now see some people have her TN in BG1 as well. I wonder what gives...

As for the stats, it's quite obvious at times that she can't be 18 WIS and 17 seems also too high. I'd rather have her 16. No less than 15 anyway. As for intelligence, it's obvious. 10 INT is average. Just about 100 IQ. If 100 IQ persons talk like her then I'm Dubya. 13 is the lowest I could possibly give her. Lower scoring people can have a wide range of vocabulary and topics, but their performance is flawed somehow or they're too much down-to-earth. If we also take into consideration that her native language is different to the one in which she expresses herself, then it's even more significant.

As for the extension itself it's not meant to be a big one. The main point is her stats. Those are meant to be 'revealed' in their true value during a picturesque night scene after leaving Chateau Irenicus. Short after. So Imoen is unlikely. The main axis of this tiny subplot would be that Jaheira lost Khalid, Minsc lost Dynaheir, Charname lost Gorion and Imoen is to be found. Nothing more shall I say, I've already spoilt too much However, before I decided to heed this idea (Darkfire's merit, he's brainstorming with me) I considered adding a bunch of lines to the dialogue in the room Khalid is found dead. In this case Imoen would go perfectly and all members of the party would be involved.

As for the mod... well it's going to be a mini-mod and a small one. I originally intended many dialogues throughout the game, but obstacles are too many. All mod NPCs have banters, some have romance conflicts, last but not least the 'everyday' aspect of romance is covered in Flirtpack mod. I don't want to mess up triggers, don't want to double other ones' work and generally I don't want to over-do. Thus the whole 'mod' is to be limited to just the one scene I mentioned and maybe some additional lines to Bioware dialogues.

Now I'm having the exam session at my university. I'll be free after 21st January and then I'll get down to the tools and learn what's needed to do the technical work as planning has been finished. If the decision is in favour of the scene over adding to existing dialogues, that would take a bit more time, both learning and doing. It's rather likely, because that would provide much more gaming experience. Actually *any* game experience at all I'll however have 19 days free until the new semester begins, so I suppose that would be enough as no additional compatibility playtesting seems to be required (I have SoA+ToB patched and with Flirtpack installed).

 

Some people made a mistake.

I do not think her dialogue is out of place for her int and wis. WotC and TSR stated that 9 in every stat is average. 10 int places her slightly above average, her dialogue is, honestly, not very complex.

In one of her romance conversations she stated that she had a wealthy upbringing. Generally, wealthy people in the middle ages had schooling. While you could argue that females generally did not, we can't exactly apply that since Faerun's society is much more based on equality than ours was during that era.

I have not seen anything about her that warrants a 16 WIS. She probably would have that because of her druidic heritage, however. Also, remember that insightful conversations are more frequent from the wise than the intellectual.

Perhaps the incident could also center around the PC losing Imoen? Vengeance was already exacted for the death of Gorion, and I think that the PC is somewhat over that by this point. Imoen and the PC must have grown pretty close during all their time adventuring, so that may affect him/her more.

 

Shhh... Immy's alread covered Nothing more about the plot, please...

I know a bit about d&d 2 and 3. I'm also a maniac/amateur psychologist, esp. in communicating and personalities, so I see the difference between wisdom and intelligence.

She's more insightful than intelligent, so WIS is definitely to remain higher. As for schooling, she got druidic only. Verbosity is rather intelligence depending than based on insight. If you have average intelligence and high wisdom, you speak very wise, but in plain, everyday words. Her verbal capability is way above average, really. Of course I know people of average intelligence or close to average (10-11) with extended (as compared) verbal skills. Still it's not that. They use the words but don't exactly understand their meanings, make mistakes, hesitate, are inconsequent. Lastly, it just doesn't really sound well for a critic.

10 INT is just like the nameless creatures who sell things to you, serve your poison, tell you you're a filthy peasant and so on...

I believe most people here at SP would score higher than Jaheira. If you want, hit this link: http://blanchard.virtualave.net/war/dndstats.html

but I also believe not many of us would survive a heated discussion with her (aka flamewar, genteel version). I scored 15 INT & 17 WIS, which is quite true, and I do have some doubts nonetheless.

edit: I had her Neutral Good, the friend from whom I borrowed the game had her NG too and many many people all over the net give her NG in NPC listings.

[ January 16, 2003, 00:37: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]

 

Allright, let's see what we've gotten too so far.

Jaherira knows a great deal about the outside world, has insight in most things, and have a big vocabolary.
This is all based on her wisdom being 16, at 17 you know even more and can, to some extend, predict in which way a crisis of some sort is going to end. At 18 wisdom the person knows everything there is in the physical world, and can predict how a crisis is going to end before it's even started. At 19 and up you have the same knowledge as with 18, but you also gains insight in the supernatural and that beyond the physical world.

She has a good sense of how to use the common/basic vocabolary, and can guess the meaning/purpose of about 1/6th of the extended vocabolary. All due to her intelligence of 10. Every point beyond 10 in intelligence increases the guess rate by 1/6th, and at 17/18 the character can use highly uncommon words ie. expressions on other languages, becomming a multi-languaged character (more than 3 different vocabolaries can be reasoned to a meaning).

So, she knows how to use the the common language and/or knowledge she posesses, beyond that she can reason herself to the correct use of some of the knowledge she posesses. Based on Wisdom 16 and Intelligence 10.

As to her alignment and/or expressions in dialogues you have to remember that the PC is out for revenge right at the beginning. Revenge being a work of evil, Jaheira tries to influence the PC to give up/lower his/her lust for revenge by speaking softly and nicely while he/she is near her. She actually behaves good because the force behind the many good-doings of the PC is a stray/detour (method to make the waiting/still time exciting) from the direct course to the ultimate goal, revenge, which is, as mentioned above, a work of evil.

If you do not agree with this, just think about it, and keep this in mind: wisdom is what you KNOW; intelligence is how to USE what you know and accuire new knowledge. As for the alignment, that's just my perspective.

[ January 17, 2003, 23:22: Message edited by: Rathan ]

 

I quite agree with you, Rathan. Thanks for valuable feedback

As for now I am most likely to give her 13 INT and 15-16 WIS. As for the alignment... Well, this can be, with loads of goodwill, called 'NG leaning'. Introducing a 3ed concept into BG2 is not a good idea on second thought. Not that I don't like monks, sorcs etc, but still. If I find out that more people have her N than NG in BG*1* then I'll leave it as it is, because I only wanted to *restitute* the original alignment. No need to destroy a pale cast of roleplaying in BG2. It's like my LG pally who's pretty much NG leaning to say the least.

As I said, I'll look into area editing as well after my exam on Tuesday 21st (final one in legal logic). If it proves to be more trouble than gain, I'll limit to a night-rest scripted encounter with spirits (sorry, it's too small a minimod to give out any spoilers) in Chateau Irenicus or glue something to Trademeet druid grove quest on condition that Jaheira deals with Faeldorn (a trouble for druid PCs ). Driad lake in Windspear Hills seems good as well for the encounter's bakcground. Graveyard district could be the best possibility, but that would have to be at the beginning of the game. Actually it's the best scenery I could imagine for this type of event unless one made by me especially for the purpose. However, if I familiarise quickly and swiftly with area editing (I'm an amateur programmer anyway), maybe I could make some pretty tiny area accessible through the graveyard by talking to a specific person (like they change your area in dream sequences, those are still areas).

 

I honestly don't see why people are considering modern education to that in the Renaissance. Most people during that age that had any semblance of an education were either bi- or trilingual, especially those with a religious education (as you stated yourself that she had).

Any person dedicated to keeping the balance would do the same. If the PC starts becoming incredibly heroic, she likewise starts complaining, although her dialogue does not truly center upon that for game purposes.

Either way, it is your mod, and you should do what you want with it.

 

I'm going to stick to d&d rules according alignments (possibly 3e if more people have her NG in BG1). When I say 'leaning' I mean still classified as NN (with some benevolence), but acting close to NG. She's a druid so she's probably at least bilingual (not exactly the same as knowing 2 languages) and she's also a half-elf from Tethyr, so I wouldn't be overly amased if she suddenly started speaking Elven.

Honestly it really hurts me to change her legitimate stats from Bioware. I'll do what I can to make it justified by the dialogues added. As for now, I can say the point is that either she doesn't realise her full possibilities or others don't. Close to a p&p situation when you may only guess such info.

[ January 21, 2003, 03:35: Message edited by: chevalier des Trois-Tours ]

 

I can't help but weigh in here. Good and Evil exist in the minds of the character -- Most evil characters believe themselves to be good or above the question -- take Solaufein, who says the Drow should focus on eliminating evil, or Edwin when he mocks the brutal nature of the Order. Both men are evil, but would not answer the question "are you evil?" with "I am evil!"

Speaking of Jaheira specifically, she is a Druid but also a Harper, which to me would mean she has had a little of their NG philosophy rub off on her. That would explain her hatred of slavery, though even a true N druid would probably be opposed to slavery as it is not "natural".

As was mentioned earlier, she is Tethyrian nobility who later chose the path of a Druid. That nobility would explain her apparent intelligence.

I will end wth a relevant quote from "The Complete Druid's Handbook", a 2nd Edition resource, that says it better than I could:

"Despite their neutral status, Druids don't resent being pulled into the struggle between alignments. Neutral individuals do NOT lack interest, ambition, or passion . . . .they may struggle passionately on behalf of themselves or others, as well as feel a compassion blanketing everything that makes up the Nature they are born to protect."

 

Alas, it'll not be possible for me to finish the work so early as I supposed. It appears that I'll hardly have time to visit this forum even due to excessive memory abuse (aka Roman law & legal logic learning) courtesy of my university. Goes slowly but goes...

 

Ooh... This sounds great! Even though I'm a girl, I practically "fell in love with Jaheira" in my first game. And it really annoyed me how mediocre her stats were, considering her supreme perception, wit and knowledge. If Khalid will show up thats even better, they're such a strangely endearing couple... Hmmm...

I think I'll be off to the Attic and see if I can find some mushy J/K lovestories.

 

of course were interested. if it adds to the game its got to be a plus!