Sorcerers vs. Mages - An unfair comparison

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I am very fond of spellcasters. My favorite classes are Sorcerers and Mages, and I also play specialists from time to time.

One of the few things that I really hate about ToB is the fact that almost 90% of all the enemies you find have some kind of magical resistance. The first time I played through ToB, the only thing my Conjurer was doing was removing protections from enemy mages and summoning bait.

The second time, though, I played as a Sorcerer and it completely rocked. With the Sorcerer I could destroy almost anything I wanted. The interesting part is that I was using the exact same equipment and party that I had with the Conjurer.

So, why did I had an easy time with the Sorcerer than with the Conjurer?

The real strength of the Sorcerer lies in two aspects:

First and most importantly, it was because of his versatility, and I know that you may be tempted to tell me: "But isn't the Conjurer more versatile than the Sorcerer? Doesn't he knows more spells than the Sorcerer?". Well, yes, but that is not the versatility that I am speaking of. The versatility of the Sorcerer lies in the fact that out of the repertory of spells he knows, he can cast whatever he wants at the exact time he wants.

Second, it was because by the end of SoA, almost 60% of the mage spells are useless, and by the beginning of ToB, only about 20% of the spells remain useful. Spells such as charm, domination, dire charm, feeblemind, carrion summons, wyvern call, protection from normal missiles, emotion: hopelessness, horror, etc. all become useless by that time.

In my humble opinion, the mage class has been, in general, severely crippled by the introduction of ToB. They just lack the versatility that Sorcerers enjoy.

A very good example of what I mean is the Project Image + Wish combo. With these two spells, you are almost guaranteed to get the "Make it as if the entire party..." wish that restores all your spells. A mage can't do this.

A Sorcerer can quite easily manage his level 9 spells deciding what to cast and at what time to cast it, whereas a Mage needs to carefully manage those time stops and improved alacricities. On top of that, the Mage can't harness the true power of the Dragon's Breath + Time Stop combo, which is one of the strongest spell combos in the game (right alongisde the Abi-Dalzim + Time Stop combo).

In conclusion, the Mage class has been quite severely nerfed in ToB.

 

I agree that the sorcerer is superior to the mage because (1) I can cast the spells more often as a sorcerer than a mage, and (2) mostly because I can choose whichever spell is most appropriate at the moment (the diversity you have mentioned).

Now I could easily make the proper spell selections for a mage by using player knowledge but I don't.

I also don't use the twinky Project Image, which was redefined in third edition.

Nevertheless, the mage is extremely powerful as well and can solo through SOA and TOB.

Welcome to the boards.

 

Firstly, welcome to the boards

Now, about my opinion on Sorcerers vs Mages. Everyone knows that I hate specialists, because they lose some spells which can prove useful.
I mean in a PnP roleplay the more spells you know the more powerful you are. In a game with a certain plot (like BG2) yes Sorcerers or specialists can be powerful, but in the true game, where you don't know the dangers you'll face they are less powerful and versatile than the plain, simple mage.

 

Ok, you are very right at a lot of points, BUT sorcerers can't mc/dc guaranteeing low hit points and vulnarability. No offense meant but The specialist mage class is powerful as well, if you can't kill enemies with him, maybe it just isnt a kit for you, but don't blame the kit.
Of course spells become useless when you get better ones, I don't see how the sorcerer does not have this problem, although magic missile is a spell I have used until the very end of the game.

"in the true game, where you don't know the dangers you'll face they are less powerful and versatile than the plain, simple mage."
(in assuming you don't count a fighter-mage to the plain simple mages)
How are you going to memorize the right spells if you know more, but have less slots. My largest problem in the game with mages is not being able to cast anything anymore. If you really want those spells just take 2 specialist mages of opposite classes. Just my personal opinion.

The thing is, I liked playing with the sorcerer more not because of his power, but mainly because of the pure relaxation of not having to arrange your spells in advance.

 

I get confused using Sorcerers magebooks, I keep thinking I can't memorize anything because the symbols are all over the book, then i remember yuo don't have to memorise the spells, and you can't write spells from scrolls, can't remember if you can cast from scrolls though

 

What?! That sucks! Not that I actually use the scrolls... but that is just stupid!

 

Why is that stupid?
He's a magic user, and with a magic scroll he can cast a magic spell....

 

oops, I thought it said he *can't* I shoud read more carefully, I played a sorcerer recently and I don't think it is that good in SoA, I think it is better for ToB only

 

You cannot compromise choise of spells over earlier spell casting. Period.

Sorcerer has 6 (if I remember correctly) lvl9 spells earlier then a mage, a mage will get this anyway at lvl31. Sorcerer cannot dual-class, Sorcerer has an extremly low ammount of spells to choose from, and the Sorcerer has no +1 specialist ability.

I've actually played SOA through once with a Sorcerer, loved it, then I realized the mage was practicly the same at higher lvls, and has more choise in spells.

Theres nothing to argue Bigger choise over Earlier casting levels

 

I don't think either of classes is really better than another, but I think I prefer sorcerer over a single class mage because of the ease of not having to memorize the right spells every time you go sleep.

Right now I am playing a wild mage, not because it's so powerful, but because of the glowing weapons and the accidently summoning demons when I don't need them Falling cows are also fun.

 

Sorcerers, i tend not to use many spells anyway, always limiting my selection to a few anyway.
And Soon...there will be a Sorcerer/Rogue..
That is completely gonna rock!

 

Sorcerors ROCK!They are stronger than mages for many reasons!

Paddy!!!

 

And those reasons are...?

 

Sorcerer has 6 (if I remember correctly) lvl9 spells earlier then a mage, a mage will get this anyway at lvl31. Sorcerer cannot dual-class, Sorcerer has an extremly low ammount of spells to choose from, and the Sorcerer has no +1 specialist ability.

Firstly, the Sorcerer can cast 6 spells per level, while a regular mage can memorize (and cast) at most 5 spells per level. Second, the Sorcerer maxes his 6 casts per level very early compared to a regular mage or a specialist.

Regarding the fact that Sorcerers cannot dual or multiclass, this isn't much of a problem if you ask me. First of all, plain spellcasters are supposed to stay in the backrows, and even there, they have a huge assortment of spells that can be used to protect them. Protection from Magical Weapons and Stoneskin immediately come to mind. Also, there is the fact that a Sorcerer only needs to cast 1 Time Stop to wreak havoc among the enemy lines.

Let us all remember that dual or multiclassed mages usually cannot enjoy all the benefits of high-level spellcasting. A multiclassed mage can get up to level 21, at which point he will only be able to cast 3 level 9 spells. It would be better for a Fighter/Mage to spend his high level spell slots in spells that can augment his fighting skills rather than trying to be a pure spellcaster. In my opinion, the only ones that can truly harness the true power of the arcane spells in BG2 are the single- classed high level mages (including specialists and Wild Mages) and Sorcerers.

However, what makes the Sorcerer shine above all other mage-classes is his incredible versatility. As I said before, this versatility comes in the form of being able to cast whatever you need at exactly the moment you need to cast it. As an additional bonus, the Sorcerer gets more room to toy around with level 9 spells. The Sorcerer is the only class that can blast his enemies with 4 Dragon's Breath spells and as many Abi-Dalzim's as he can squeeze in while in the middle of a Time Stop.

Lastly, there is the fact that as you progress through the game most of the spells become obsolete, useless or impractical. Why do you want to be able to memorize a wide range of spells when you can have a powerhouse able to tackle almost every scenario in the game with well-chosen spell picks?

 

"plain spellcasters are supposed to stay in the backrows, and even there, they have a huge assortment of spells that can be used to protect them."

Yesterday I was fighting the lich in sendai's enclave. My wild mage was all the way at the back, but got hit by horrid wilting... one dead mage... DC/MC mages have way more hitpoints. If you have a DC level9 fighter, level X mage he will be WAY more powerful than an ordinary mage, simply because he has far more hitpoints. And it will probably only cost you one level of your mage class.

"Lastly, there is the fact that as you progress through the game most of the spells become obsolete".
Yeah, but at that time level 9 spells aren't absolute, and there it is important to have a wide range. Besides, with my wild mage I can cast like 8 level 9 spells if I want to. I can memorize 4 at the moment, and with that reckless wild mage spell I usually get 2 out of 3 right.

 

Yesterday I was fighting the lich in sendai's enclave. My wild mage was all the way at the back, but got hit by horrid wilting... one dead mage...

That's why all my mages are always protected by the Protection from Magical Energy spell, which grants 100% resistance to pure magical damage. As an added bonus, you can cast this spell on yourself or your first-row fighters and proceed to rip the opposition to shreds with Skull Traps.

DC/MC mages have way more hitpoints. If you have a DC level9 fighter, level X mage he will be WAY more powerful than an ordinary mage, simply because he has far more hitpoints. And it will probably only cost you one level of your mage class.

You know, the most effective way a high-level spellcaster has of beating beefed-up fighters (or f/mages or f/clerics) is to use one-hit killing or disabling spells, such as Finger of Death, Polymorph Other or Chromatic Orb, while distracting him with summons. I am talking about duels here though, because if you face a lot of beefed up fighters at the same time you just distract them with summons and throw a couple of AoE spells down their way.

You are right about one thing, though. Making an early dual-class just for the sake of getting those extra hit points is very nice. Wild Mages also make very good spellcaster, because they get +1 spell memorization slots per level without having to sacrifice any school of magic.

 

So I'm only right about one thing eh?

You're always protected from magical energy? So you rest every few turns?

Horrid wilting was an example to stress the vulnarability of mages. even with prot. magical energy fire can get through or cold or lightning, or maybe you forgot your stoneskin and BAM!

 

You're always protected from magical energy? So you rest every few turns?

Protection from Magical Energy lasts 1 turn per level of the caster. Unless it takes you 3 hours to beat a dungeon, two of those are almost all you will ever need before you need to rest the next time.

Horrid wilting was an example to stress the vulnarability of mages. even with prot. magical energy fire can get through or cold or lightning, or maybe you forgot your stoneskin and BAM!

No self-respecting mage player should forget about casting Stone Skin. You can even script it so that your mage casts it instantly after rest. A mage is only vulnerable when his protections expire or when the player forgets about turning them on.

 

Still, it's a level 6 spell. You won't be able to cast it until you reach level 12, and having two memorized will mean you can hardly cast any other level 6 spells at that time. In other words no true sight, pierce magic, prot magical weapons, death spell.

There's too many things to protect yourself from. Even with stoneskin some creatures can bash their way right through.