Multi vs. Dual classing

Remove all ads!

@Earl Grey
It would be awesome if you put your thoughts on multiclassing in an FAQ. A little cut and paste of your posts, a little editing, and voila! Being more SOA-minded, I had never seriously considered them until now. I am still trying to decide between Kensai/Thief and Fighter/Thief; better backstab vs. better melee ability. Dualling can definitely improve a pure class, but I see no reason why not to 'compare' duals and multis. These comparisons force you to think about how your party will operate. Everything we discussed here would have been a GREAT help to me if I were new to BG .

@Infarateo Gantul
How about a Blade FAQ? Pros, cons, and rebuttals. With a special section on tactics, of course .

 

@Depaara
Actually I was/am discussing dual classing in SoA and continuing with that character in ToB.

Dual classing a new character at the start of ToB is possible but since you start with 2,500,000 xp it is a different prospect. Dual classing Sarevok is an example that is often discussed. But you are right, dual classing after 2.5 mill xp is kind of silly.

In response to one of your earlier posts: Weapon Grand Mastery has a very marginal effect in BG2.

@Drumheller
A FAQ? Possibly, but some input from other veterans here at SP on the subject would be nice.
While my experience with SoA is fairly extensive, in ToB it's not so great and I base much of my ideas and speculations on theory and projections.

 

For a warrior character the most important thing is without a doubt HLA's. (Btw, GM in weapons is unfortunately a joke.)
---->Indeed.

In what case can such a tradeoff be found?
---->Kensai-Mage vs F/M. The former can cast more spells, some of which have greater effectivity. The latter has fewer spells.

Let's compare then (Kensai-13/Mage-28 vs Fighter-24/Mage-20):
---->Okay.

HP's: dual Kensai/Mage is better
Spells: dual Kensai/Mage is better

THAC0: multi Fighter/Mage is better
---->by four? Earl, you forgot the Grandmastery Bonus... Frankly, when all items are put into play there's hardly anything than can stand against the THAC0 of these two anyway.

Saves: multi Fighter/Mage is better
---->Though both can easily reach below zero. And with all the items and spells available - in particular to the Kensai-Mage surely one can offset this.

HLA's: multi Fighter/Mage is better
----->Warrior HLA's you mean. If you focus on Wizard HLA's only, the Kensai-Mage will win...

Equipment: multi Fighter/Mage is better


* Summary *
Where the Kensai/Mage truly misses out is on the Fighter HLA's. In ToB a warrior is not a warrior unless he has access to Greater Whirlwind. [Smile]
-----> Fighter HLA's are nice. Greater Whirlwind, Death Blow, Smite, Hardiness, etc. are incredible skills that need no introduction.
Unfortunately, we are talking about Fighter-Mages here, and truly Mutliclass wins out on this side of the class.

But like you said, magic is something that should not be taken lightly. You're basing you're conclusion on the fact that on the warrior-side, the Fighter-Mage rules supreme.

- Spells
Ken/Mag has 4*9th, 5*8th, 5*7th, 5*6th
Fig/Mag has 2*9th, 3*8th, 3*7th, 4*6th
----->According to this, the Kensai-Mage can cast four timestops in contrast to the Fighter-Mages' two - that, and other level 9 spells. That also includes a paaticularly potent spell - Wish.
He may use Reflected Image 5 times in contrast to the Fighter-Mage's 3 to save his skills - so whoever your opponent is has to battle five Kensai-Mages in a row. Now, the five Kensai-Mages in a row means that all spells currently memorized except level 8 are to be multilpied 5 times in contrast to the Fighter-Mages' 3.
He may also use Greater Mantle or Protection from Magical Weapons more frequently - in defiance to Greater Whirlwind. (Timestop also defies it to some extent) That gives him enough time to hit the opponent, doing maximum damage per hit thanks to Kai, with more spells to keep him on the field - the scenario that stands against a Fighter-Mage activating all his HLA's and giving the enemy everything that he has before he loses his momentum .

BTW, Earl. During my days of ignorance when I used to spend 7 hours on just making a character, (approximately about 4 years or so ago) I successfully made a Fighter-Enchanter Elf Multiclass. I didn't like him much though, so I dumped him for a Sorcerer and only when I became a member of a BG2 board and got technically acquainted to the game did I realize that what I had made was something impossible. By the time I rushed hom to find some trace of him on my save folders, he had long been deleted.
I tried (and atm is still trying) to recreate him - to no avail.
Anyways, it occured to me that if there was a multi-class with even just one kit - that would be something supreme indeed. Heh, you can do that easily would Shadowkeeper, yes... But to find a way to do it within the game itself - even though the cause may be a bug of somesort - can easily end this discussion, eh?

Anyways, onwards:

Concerning T/M and Blades
The Blade is geared for melee combat and I find this character suprisingly effective in SoA. In ToB however, melee combat is the arena where warriors, with their excellent HLA's and supreme base THAC0, rule. You could use the Blade or the T/M in melee, but if you do, wouldn't it have been better to choose a warrior type instead in that position?
----->Sure.
But still, when it comes to fighting, the Blade will always be better than the T/M. More so against F/M/T, hehehe...

About the 200+ damage spell - you need to reveal which spell you are talking about! [Smile]
----->Now, unless the spell descriptions are wrong again, ie casting time of Imprisonment, imagine spells like Skull Trap and Cone of cold done by someone of level 37 skill VS someone of level 18 skill...

What are you talking about? [Eek!]
T/M gets to use 7th, 8th, 9th level spells as well as Quest level spells. Only with a few spells can you take advantage of levels over 20; Dispel Magic for example.
----->Yes, and all spells with durations relying on duration per level, and damage per level... Stone Skin, Skull Trap, etc... they may be few, but in the hands of someone twice your level, imagine the odds.

Is Time Stop & Improved Alacrity not "intense" to you? [Cool]
----->Improved Alacrity only, pls. Blades can also do Timestops from scrolls, traps, or by some other means I'm not so intent on discussing atm since it's waaaayyyyyy past my bedtime.
Blades can't cast quest spells. It's one of their downsides, I admit. Just be thankful Blade's can't cast Dweomers.... Hehehe.

To be honest T/M and Blades are too different to be really comparable.
----->That's because Blades introduce a blend in gaming style that is rare, uncommon among other classes and atm is known to have susbstantial but undecided worth.
Blades can also execute special "tactics" that are unique to him and Bards - which cannot be counted among HP, THAC0, Saves, etc., and whose worth can only be seen in the field...

@Drumheller
A FAQ? Possibly, but some input from other veterans here at SP on the subject would be nice. [heh]
While my experience with SoA is fairly extensive, in ToB it's not so great and I base much of my ideas and speculations on theory and projections.
----->What a coincidence. The same applies for yours truly too, heh.

I've played SoA so many times that when ToB came I only concentrated on my favorite kit - Blades, though I've also been working some on the other Bards. I've finished ToB a couple of times yes, but at a point when I'm no longer as keen as I should.

I have long been planning a Blade and Bard FAQ, and after the permission from Taluntain I'm still trying to finish it. I do not admit to being an uber-expert on Blades - but I do know much, and it's best that everybody should know too.

 

From the ToB manual:

This is one example of why I earlier wrote

Makes quite a big difference to the valuation of a Bard-37, doesn't it?

Would you cast Time Stop from a scroll?
I'd have one of my mages put it into his spellbook.

I'm not sure I understand you here.
The F/M can choose mage HLA's at every level gained if he so wishes. He has seven HLA's by the time the Ken/Mag gets his first. Also the number of mage HLA's are so few that the Kensai-13/Mage-28 will not gain any more HLA after becoming Kensai-13/Mage-25!

Ok, that's +1 To Hit more than the multiclass has, making the numbers like this:
Ken/Mag THAC0 3
Fig/Mag THACO 0
Agreed, this is a marginal difference compared to the one with HLA's.

 

Capped at level 20...
-----> Whoa, that's a new one.
Bah, I'll get over it somehow.
Anyways, that still puts the Blade at least a little better when casting spells...
I guess T/M's do take the crown on magic side though - allbeit by not a very long distance. Though I wouldn't necessarily call it short either.
*writes down in FAQ*
Fortunately, this doesn't affect Blade tactics much - phew.

Makes quite a big difference to the valuation of a Bard-37, doesn't it? [Wink]
-----> Hehehehe... yes it does. Having a higher level means the Bard will have more HLA's to use, though.
Unfortunately, that's not consolation enough.

Would you cast Time Stop from a scroll? [Eek!]
I'd have one of my mages put it into his spellbook.
-----> To allow me to cast them, of course. Though I would much rather prefer using Traps and saving the scrolls for the more powerful but "timestoppable" bosses.

I'm not sure I understand you here.
The F/M can choose mage HLA's at every level gained if he so wishes. He has seven HLA's by the time the Ken/Mag gets his first. Also the number of mage HLA's are so few that the Kensai-13/Mage-28 will not gain any more HLA after becoming Kensai-13/Mage-25!
-----> If the F/M concentrates more on Mage HLA's he loses his greatest advantage over the K/M - the ability to wield Fighter HLA's - and lots of it.
The F/M is also at a disadvantage if he concentrates on Mage HLA's since the K/M will still be the more powerful mage.

Back to Blades and T/M it is thus decided that Blades are better at melee and T/M's are better at Magic.
Blades can cut down everything in their path in ways that could shame all but the most dedicated warriors. T/M's can combine magic and thievery enough to meet all the needs of a gamer - an excellent mage, a more-than-decent warrior and a competent and deadly thief.

That said, let's end the T/M vs Blade discussion.

>>Edited: Deleted this part. There's a better explanation below.

[ April 26, 2003, 16:46: Message edited by: Infarateo Gantul ]

 

The bottom line is that in most class-vs-class debates, it comes down to a rock-paper-scissors type situation. If a Blade chaged headlong down a M/T's throat, the blade would obviously enough slice the cr@p out of the M/T. If it came to both players being webbed, the superior spell-slinging ability of the M/T would prevail. In effect, its not a 'This class would win because he's better at this and this and this' debate, because there is always a situation where class #1 will shine and class #2 will fail.

Such is life and D&D .

 

I'd like to thank Earl Grey for the posts. He answered the question very nicely on one of his posts, would multi class characters get HLA like DC. Thank you all for the great posts, Now I know how I should go with my characters.

Sorry I did not repond sooner, but my wife went into labor last Tuesday, so I just got back online.

 

i just checked out a char i did with clua (just to get this info)....

kensai mage 13\18

he uses staff of the magi
grandmastery in quarterstaffs
2 points in two handed weapons, 2 in single weapons.

Base thac0=8
thac0=-6
i also manage to get his ac down to -7 by also equipting a ione helmet stone, robe of vecna, ring of gaxxx, ring of protection +2 and cloak of sewers.

this char will as stated before, get alot of spells. and based upon what i said here, the char will also be good in combat...

i did it with grandmastery in longsword and 3 points in dual wielding too, i got a thac0 of -6 again with daystar, with cromfayer and daystar this decreased to -7 and -10 dual wielding.

so yes, even in dual classing u can get better thaco if u hadnt and i also consider this char is better than pure mage or sorceror or even a mage\cleric. since none of the other can get that good thac0 on that level.

i tested a kensai\thief just now
the thac0 was:
main hand -21 with celestial fury
off hand -21 with crom fayer

i think this dual worse than multi talk is quit crap....
i tested out the char i wanted to dual class:
http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001884#000010

and they proved to be very good....
the thaco could possibly get better, but i didnt have the resources to test the chars out good enough sadly...
Also, the lack of ability thing is bull**** too.

the only char that got very few abilities was my assasin\fighter

and i have to point out that my kensai\thief got 640 points to distribute in thieving skills + those 40-50 he get when u dual class which is a 690 points total....

[ May 09, 2003, 02:27: Message edited by: Death Whisper ]