NPCs & Stats

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I really find preposterous the way the game almost forces us to min/max & roll in order to get "decent" characters... If you just roll once you most probably get a character who will rank among the worst in the game (which isn't a problem if you play a Sorcerer... without an ego).
Consider Imoen, it's rather silly that she probably has better stats than Charname (unless you play a Ranger or a Paladin or... keep rolling).
The logic of the game is that you don't get advantages from stats below 15, and these perks get even better the higher they are. And the problem is that most NPCs get at least 15...
I played for years a pnp Thief who had only two stats above 13 and 'only' 16 DEX, in this game such a character would be the worst thief of the Realms.

Let's take a look at the numbers:

Sarevok 96, Keldorn 89, Jaheira 88, Yoshimo 88, Imoen 87, Nalia 87, Haer'Dalis 87, Mazzy 86, Viconia 85, Valygar 85, Aerie 82, Jan 81, Korgan 80, Cernd 80, Anomen 79 (83), Edwin 74, Minsc 73.

That's an average of 84 points: 84/6= 14, it doesn't look that bad yet it's quite high (I'm prepared to make allowances for Sarevok for obvious reasons) yet:

Sarevok 16, Keldorn 14.83, Jaheira 14.66, Yoshimo 14.66, Imoen 14.5, Nalia 14.5, Haer'Dalis 14.5, Mazzy 14.33, Viconia 14.16, Valygar 14.16, Aerie 13.66, Jan 13.5, Korgan 13.33, Cernd 13.33, Anomen 13.16 (13.83), Edwin 12.33, Minsc 12.16

Any self respecting PC will feel bad with less than 87 points.

Things get worse if we consider the Stats in detail:

STR 14.41 on average

18/00 Sarevok
18/93: Minsc
18/77: Korgan
18/52: Anomen
17: Yoshimo, Keldorn, Haer'Dalis, Valygar
15: Jaheira, Mazzy
14: Nalia
13: Cernd
10: Viconia, Edwin, Aerie
9: Imoen, Jan

It is consistent that fighter types get a high STR (nevertheless 16.86 on average is a lot) Yoshimo and Haer'Dalis get high scores too.

DEX 15.47

19: Viconia
18: Imoen, Nalia, Yoshimo, Valygar, Mazzy
17: Jaheira, Aerie, Jan, Haer'Dalis, Sarevok
16: Minsc
15: Korgan
10: Edwin, Anomen
9: Keldorn, Cernd

It's quite interesting to remark that 3 thieves out of 4 have 18 (the maximum) and 12 characters out of 17 have at least 16 (only 4 don't get any bonuses at all).

CON 14.76

19: Korgan
17: Sarevok, Keldorn, Jaheira
16: Valygar, Mazzy, Imoen, Nalia, Edwin, Anomen, Yoshimo, Minsc
15: Jan
13: Cernd
9: Haer'Dalis, Aerie
8: Viconia

Same here with only 4 characters below 15 and 12 characters with at least 16 -including Edwin (!) Imoen and Nalia whose CON are as good as the Rangers'...

INT 13.47

18: Edwin
17: Imoen, Nalia, Sarevok
16: Viconia, Aerie, Jan
15: Haer'Dalis
13: Yoshimo
12: Korgan, Keldorn, Cernd
10: Jaheira, Anomen, Valygar, Mazzy
8: Minsc

WIS 12.53 (12.76)

18: Viconia, Cernd
16: Aerie, Keldorn, (Anomen)
14: Jaheira, Jan, Valygar
13: Haer'Dalis, Mazzy
12: Anomen
11: Imoen
10: Edwin, Yoshimo, Sarevok
9: Korgan, Nalia
6: Minsc

CHA 13.12

18: Keldorn
16: Imoen, Haer'Dalis
15: Jaheira, Cernd, Sarevok
14: Viconia, Yoshimo, Aerie, Mazzy
13: Nalia, Anomen
10: Edwin, Jan, Valygar
9: Minsc
7: Korgan

I guess that when you start to look at these Stats in detail you understand why some of us keep rolling... It's a pity that even with 15 or 16 DEX a PC will rank among the clumsiest party members; with less than 16 CON he/she is certainly going to be the less hardy.
There is only one solution left: SK!
Or perhaps RP a misguided Sorcerer with average stats and an inflated ego who is convinced of his (nonexistent)superiority and rely on the tomes (BG tutu) to boost his abilities.

 

Yes, BGII is definitely geared towards power gaming stats. In pnp games, we typically rolled 4 six-sided dice, and took the three highest to produce our stats. Even using this method, there's still not way you'd average a 14 in all your stats in character generation. It would raise the average from 10 to about 12.

 

When I was a DM I like power gaming to a point. I didn't provide super magical weapons but I did allow for some higher stats.

What I did is have each player roll 5d6 for each ability score. They would than take the 3 highest dice. The lowest dice roll for each stat would be added up and divided by 6 and added to one ability score not to exceed their racial maximums. This ended up being a quick way to give players a chance to be Eleven rangers or decent multi-class characters in my world. One thing I encourage is a 15+ con and dex. Most of the players of course ended up with 16+. I did enjoy having most of the PC survive more than one adventure.

 

It is maybe good to look at them from an In-Universe point of view. They don't have these stats because they are thiefs/mages/fighters, they were born with these stats and are just doing what they are good at.


Also most NPCs are extraordinary characters with history.

Imoen and Sarevok: Bhaalspawn
Keldorn: There are many Paladins in his Order in he is the best of them so it's no surprise that he as good stats.
Minsc: We know that a god looks lovingly down at him and he has Boo.
Yoshimo: It seems logical that Jon would prefer servants with extraordinary abilites.
Anomen, Jaheira: I don't think that the Harpers and the Order search for average people.
Valygar: The force is strong in his family.
Viconia: I'm sure there are more Drow which have big problems with their families however only extraordinary Drow like Drizzt and Viconia can hope to survive and escape.

I'm sure you can find similar explanations for the other NPCs.

 

Still it's definitely powergaming... especially maxing out CON and DEX (which is obvious); with NWN character generation doesn't use a random element and you have to pay for uber stats.

@Luzifer's right hand: good points though I'd tend to disagree about Anomen, he is the one who is desperate to join the order (not the other way round). Bhaalspawns are not gods, do you remember the Bhaalspawns in Saradush? Vierkang? or the little guy who gets crushed by Sarevok in BG1 Intro movie? Besides Nalia is as good as Imoen without being a Bhaalspawn.

 

Not all Bhaalspawns have good stats, but some of them have. Also stats for gods are a little bit higher afaik.

Nalia just has good genes, in a world with as many dangers as Ferun it does not seem impossible that people which own a castle far from the next city are tough people and not degenerated aristocrats.
Anomen is one of the worst NPCs anyway.

 

Yet another reason why I prefer BG1 to BG2. You need to powergame in order to compete in BG2. And don't give me that 'stat-boosting items' crap; that's just another way to powergame. In BG1 you can play a minimum-stats character whose party will always bail them out, but in BG2 they'd need every stat-boosting item in the game just to survive all the liches, beholders, and uber-powerful enemy mages.

 

Power gaming in the BG2 is easily seen when you look at what magical items you can purchase early on in the game. In BG1 you were lucky to find +1 enchanted weapons for sale and those that were powerful cost an arm and a leg and took you at least to level 5 before you could purchse. In BG2 you do a quest or two and next thing you know you have one of the most power robes in BG2. To me that is way power gaming. I don't think stats being high are as important as giving power magical items early on in a game. Maybe they should alter BG2 and allow some of the items only to be pick up when you reach ToB and even reduce the items offered in ToB. Maybe than we wouldn't need all these mods to actually make the game more challenging. Ubber stats are not going to get you out of a bind if you don't have the extra 10 spells from your ring & amulet, etc....

That is why when I was a DM I would give barely any magical items as treasure. I enjoyed having my PC struggle through dungeons only to find one or two magical items. Most of the time I would make sure that those items would be usable by at least one of the PC and it would seem useless to them at first but would provide great use later on. In my previous post I let my PC have super stats since it they are important to help them survive early on in the game as well as later battles. Super stats don't upset me one bit but it does upset me when you have over powered magical items early on in the game and that is why BG2 is easy at time because you are way over powered not because of your stats but because there are so many great magical items available early in the game.

 

Wow. I take time off for some writing and this is what's here.

Think how high the stats of Anomen and Minsc would be if they were 'normal' <ahem> NPCs. Anomen is an illegal dual class; heaven forbid how inflated his ego would be with a 17 wisdom. And Minsc with a proper wisdom score for a ranger?

I do roll a PC until the numbers are around 90 or so. Yes, I get irked when the NPCs' stat totals are higher than mine.

I'm also bothered by this low constitution score running rampant. It's the stat I actually mark first, even before my 'main' stat. Those extra hitpoints may mean life or death after getting hit with poison or Melf's Acid Arrow.

PnP, our 'evil' campaign had 2 people roll 4 for one score. One was me - I rerolled one for a total of 5 for my charisma. The other was an elf (-2 Con.), thusly he became a vampire spawn with a 2 constitution.

I keep the role playing for PnP games where it's a bit more versitile and power game for RPGs.

 

I disagree about needing to powergame BG2 to comp;ete it. Unmodded, its so easy its not even funny. As a mage/sorcerer its even easier.

Two problems with BG2 IMO are:

1. Too much XP... lower levels are more interseting. I still think you should be able to progress to level 25 or there abouts but make it slower... especially as a solo.

2. Magic items are too powerful. This was well explained by Silver Knight. I might edit my games shops to take some items out... and I might remove quite a few +4/5 weapons from the game too... I'm reminded of Gary Oldman's line from the end of Batman Begins for some reason "What about escalation?" meaning if a person stars carrying better equipment, the enemy will too, which your PC will get meaning the next enemies will have to have even better stuff. Bit of a weird reference but what the hell

I don't think stats being high are such a problem.

 

Good post Malovae. I agree with your points; I think the reason I enjoyed BG1 more than BG2 was - as you put it - "lower levels are more interesting". The way BG2 trips over itself to give you items always makes a new game feel a bit of a slog, as you traipse through the same old quests to fetch the goodies. In BG1, there were only a handful of especially useful items, and most were sort-of on the way (e.g. Spider's Bane, Long Bow of Marksmanship). Also, (to haul things back on topic), the dearth of stat-fixing items made min-maxing less important. In fact, I can only remember two: the Bracers of Dexterity, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power. While powerful, sure, they sort of rewarded players who'd RP'd weak or clumsy characters over those who chose to max those stats at the expense of (say) charisma, for powergaming. Equally, they could be abused, but not as badly. STR and DEX are important for your survival from the get-go, and while it was possible to plan a character with low DEX, the GoOP (now there's an acronym! ) were too far away to be relied upon. They were just a nice bonus for getting towards endgame.

Now compare: in BG2, you stumble out of Irenicus' dungeon and onto a ring that sets your charisma to 18! That's the exact opposite effect, and basically makes players who invested some points in CHA (for RP purposes or otherwise) feel no better off than the min/max crowd. It's exactly the opposite of how BG1 managed the situation, and I don't think it's the right way at all. By all means, allow +to stat items, but just setting something to max? It feels cheap and is yet another area where 3E rules handle the situation better.

 

@Silver Knight: ToB is even worse, there are +3 weapons everywhere...

@Felinoid: The point is that Jaheira, Minsc and Edwin all received some stats boost (mainly DEX) between BG1 and BG2, to me that doesn't that much sense.

@Malovae: I agree that BG2 can be played without necessarily powergaming, the XP issue is hard to solve (I've given up soloing... it wasn't fun anymore), some magic items are really bad (especially the bonus merchants' ones, I wont' even mention the cloak of cheese or the ring of human influence)

@Kuemper: Minsc is beyond our point here, but Anomen is really irksome -to say the least- I would have made him a true DC with 15 STR and 17 WIS, I mean come on pretty boy has 18/52 STR? Is he that tough? That makes him almost on par with Korgan!!!

Anyway some of these stats are so silly: Edwin's CON for instance, given that he is the best mage available (Conjuror, the best specialist + bonus spells) his CON could have been much lower without diminishing his efficiency.

The point is that CON/DEX 16 are almost the basic requirements for any decent character...

I've checked through the Pnp (2nd edition) and found Volo's stats: 12 15 15 17 11 16 total 86, a notch lower than Imoen BUT the stats are not maxed out DEX and CON 15 gives minor bonuses, INT 17 and CHA 16 are quite good but no 18s (unlike Imoen)
If we consider Artemis Entreri's stats: 13 18 15 16 15 13 total 90 more than Keldorn but after all he is Drizz't's nemesis...
It's rather a problem of points allocation: the difference between 14 and 15 (and each point above 14) is greater than the difference between 9 and 14 (if we overlook weight capacity and other minor adjustments) this makes sense in Pnp when most rolls will get average results (with some exceptions) whereas in BG2 it is optimization.

EDIT:

I do agree about stat enhancing items, but I must add that in BG1 there was some really powerful items that were available for new characters I'm thinking about the Ring of Wizardry in particular which turns a low level mage into a decent spellcaster, I mean there is no other class that is as difficult and inefficient as a low level mage, this ring is a real boon.

 

Some improvement is not necessarily nonsensical (after all BG1 did have Tomes), but they went a little overboard IMHO. I'm not complaining though; I'm a big fan of DEX and was glad at the change.

@Caradhas:
I think you and kuemper are actually in agreement here. Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I too think CRPGs are by design more about optimization and min-maxing than they need to be.

Might & Magic IV (World of Xeen, IIRC) had an interesting way of doing stats. You couldn't adjust the numbers from the roll (or reroll) up or down, but you could switch two of the numbers. It made it a lot more like assigning stats in PnP (though the numbers went up to 30 ). The BG series might have avoided the min-max pitfall had it stuck closer to the rules.

 

Sticking closer to the rules means that people are going to be mad for having to roll for 30 minutes because they wanted to play a paladin and their rolls wouldn't let them (which, I know you can avoid without moving points) but moving points is a necessary evil so people can more readily customize their characters.

Anyway, to the point at hand. Maybe I'm the only one who has adjusted NPC's stats down? I used to min/max my characters but I found seeing 18s across the board, well, bored me. I'm not saying I don't like good stats but my current sorcerer has a total of like 83 or something and I'm loving it; still high and she can't hit for anything but she's not supposed to. I have adjusted Anomen's STR down, Imoen's, Nalia's, Edwin's and Jan's CON down, etc. because I thought they were all too high. Yeah, they weren't as good of characters then. But then getting good items mattered. Anomen with a 15 STR was not nearly as good, but when he got GoOP, man, he stepped it up.

Also, as far as good equipment goes, my first 2 or 3 playthroughs I only completed 2 of the Cromwell items (the Equalizer and the Wave) and didn't get CF. Game is still as fun. I mean, I got to endgame with 1 +4 or above weapon (Warblade for Minsc) and my Kensai was dualweilding 2 long swords (Blade of Roses and Dragon Slayer). Best game I played.

 

It's supposed to be hard to roll a paladin! That's the whole point!!! If someone gets pissed because they can't automatically be whatever the hell they feel like, then they shouldn't be playing in the first place. Playing a class like a paladin should be a privilege, not something you can do on a whim. It makes the experience that much more powerful and gratifying; an experience you can treasure, rather than one you just chuck out the window. Rerolling for 5 HOURS would be worth it to play a paladin.

In PnP, you don't even get to reroll once. I was lucky enough to get stats for a paladin three times (though one time I decided to go a different path), and I was glad for those three. Allowing rerolling at all is enough of a sacrifice as it is.

As an aside, I admire you for resisting the urge to min-max. So far, I haven't managed it.

 

I like to max but not so much to min. I like having 18 Strength, 18 Constitution is neat, and I like 18 Intelligence if I can spare the points. (My favorite class is Fighter / Mage.) But I also don't like to go below 10 in any statistic. When you add the fact that fighter / mages get absolutely owned if they have low dexterity, I sometimes feel like I spend more time rolling than playing. It's almost worth going to Trademeet first and whacking Skarmaen Alibakkar for his elven armor.

I don't think that rolling until I get a total between 88 and 90 is too powergaming. I do think it's too powergaming to lower your intelligence to 3, use the Deck of Many Things to get one character an extra three million experience points, or give Imoen a belt which quantum-teleports her strength up by twelve points without stopping anywhere in between. (That third one I've actually done once. ) In fact, I think all of those strength-enhancing items are too cheesy, including Angurvadal. Its own backstory refers to it as "the sword of fire". What the heck does it have to do with your upper body strength?!

 

@UCLAParadox & Felinoid: since we choose the class before rolling being a paladin is not a problem, I wonder if anyone ever played a pally with 12 in STR?
I think I'm going to modify NPCs stats like you did (esp STR, DEX and CON) in my next game, it will be fun.
There is always a temptation to get carried away, I remember my first Ranger/Cleric at the end of BG1 with 21 points in WIS -really silly, the more so since this score only brought a few extra spells...
I played a Berserker/Druid with only 7 points in CON, because I didn't want to roll for hours in order to get the stats I needed for the dual class (STR 15 WIS 17 CHA 17) and I wanted at least 16 points of DEX and I didn't want to lower INT too much (not below 12... that guy is supposed to be the leader) this was even worse than rolling for a paladin!
No need to mention a Ranger dualled into Cleric, this DC needs really uber stats.
It's a relief sometimes to play a Sorcerer who doesn't need high stats at all (DEX and CON doesn't hurt but are not essential whereas the rest is almost expendable).

@Western Paladin: you HAVE to roll such stats if you want your character to be in the same league as Keldorn or... Imoen.
If we consider a F/M/T with really average stats -9 9 9 9 9 9- with the right items he would become a god, that would be powergaming too.

The point is (and I wish the game would use a system like the one Felinoid mentioned) that when you play you have to min/max stats.
Let's say I roll a new character, I get STR 16 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 13 WIS 17 CHA 12, that's 87 points, not bad at all. Yet I only get +1 to damage, -1 AC. Now if I'm going to play a Fighter I will probably want to lower WIS, INT, CHA to augment the other stats which will give me something like this: STR 18/xx DEX 18 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 12 I would still have the same total but my character will be much more powerful that way (especially if I am lucky and get 18/91+) +2 to Hit, at least +3 damage, +2 to Hit with missiles, -4 AC, +4HP/level... a powergamer's option could be (without rerolling) this: STR 18/xx DEX 18 CON 18 INT 9 WIS 6 CHA 18 thus freeing a Ring slot and still getting better prices and rewards. Going through the game with the first roll would be much more difficult but in the end much more rewarding; still this character has a lower CON and DEX than most NPCs and will most likely get only a few more HPs than Imoen even if he/she is a Fighter. Although this character can actually (and without bending the rules) dual class into Cleric he/she will not be as good a fighter as Anomen without any STR enhancing item. [grumble]

 

At least BGII is somewhat better than Icewind Dale II powergaming-wise. You can still finish Baldur's Gate II as a mage with 10 intelligence, even if that would involve recruiting two or three NPC spellcasters. In Icewind Dale II, if you're a drow or tiefling wizard, there's practically no benefit, either in terms of game mechanics or in terms of roleplaying, from doing anything other than raising your intelligence to 20 while lowering your charisma to 5 (or 3 in the second case).

Although the good thing in Icewind Dale II is that you start getting bonuses at a score of 12, rather than 15.

 

I think your supposed to build the intellegence as you level in IWD2, not reduce all uneeded stats down as low as you dare, in order to get an immediatly powerful wizard. Saying it has no benefit in terms of rp'ing is imo wrong.

 

So, you think that the real point of the tiefling wizard having a maximum intelligence of 20 is actually so that she'll be the most powerful wizard when she reaches the Severed Hand, rather than right away? Hmm. Okay, I think that's a fair comment.

I quite like the way SixOfSpades puts it.