Berserker versus Sorcerer

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I'm going to let this debate rage for a while before I give my opinions, but I'll tip my hand a little bit and say that a Berserker stands more of a chance than people give him credit for.

Ground rules for the competition. We're assuming fairly high levels here. Maybe not a level 40 berserker versus a level 31 sorcerer (8 million XP), but we're talking at least 4 million XP each, so that the sorcerer had level 9 spells, and both classes have several HLAs.

You can assume both of these characters have any equipment that you would reasonably assume someone from that class would have. You want to give your sorcerer the Robe of Vecna? Fine by me. Similarly, if you want to give your berserker a few protection from magic scrolls, that's fine by me too.

However, you can't do something that is impossible in-game. For example, the berserker is not allowed to dual-wield the Ravager and Carsomyr. Similarly, you can't say the sorcerer has an unlimited supply of every scroll in the game, thus circumventing the five known spells per level rule. It's reasonable that a berserker is carrying around a PfM scroll. It's unreasonable that a sorcerer is carrying around multiple copies of every single spell on the face of Faerun.

 

Okay: 9th level berserker with a Cloak of Cheese and boots of speed. Level 40 sorcerer.

Berserker will win, as the cloak + rage makes him practically immune to everything magical (even turning Minute Meteors back at the caster) and the boots would allow him to outrun any summon. Death spell would be useless too, since he would be above the crucial level.

Or...?

 

I love berserkers. One reason I always take Korgan, and they are awesome at destroying mages. High THAC0, low AC, huge HPs and great special ability.

However, it is all down to Time Stop. In my experience if the Mage/Sorcerer gets this off then it is all over. The damage dealing spells and summons will just wipe out the Berserker.

If the Berserker can get to the Sorcerer before he gets off Time Stop, it will be a close fight. The number of attacks can gradually break through the defences and the right weapons will lower resistances and can cause the Sorcerer to miscast spells. Then it is game over and the Berserker wins.

So, in summary, if the Sorcerer gets off Time Stop then goodbye Berserker it was nice knowing you.

 

Shouldn't a mislead + invisibility on the mislead be an impossible situaion for the berserker? if he does have some way to detect it, I have heard that a spell immunity: divination should fix that.

 

Yes, the sorcerer would just need to go invisible for enough time for the rage to wear off, then imprison the berserker. (cloak of cheese doesn't reflect imprison does it?)

 

Just cast a scroll of prot. from magic on the sorcerer, and then he will be stuck with no spellcasting ability

 

Haha, brilliant solution. Anyone tried it in-game against Kangaxx and the like?

 

I think everyone has tried that.

I'd give the Berserker the Axe of Unyielding in off-hand and maybe Stonefire or something that does elemental damage. That way, if one hits, a possible vorpal hit. If the other hits, it will disrupt any casting. Stoneskin won't save the Sorcere(ss)r anymore.

Alternitavely, I'd give the Sorcerer the Staff of the Magi. Like Bard said, if the sorcerer gets Time Stop off, then I'd summon 1 elemental prince, 1 deva, and one Skeleton warrior, boxing him in. That way he can't escape. I'd then proceed to summon like mad, keeping up with his kill rate.

 

How would a sorceror cast a Druidic Quest Spell Greater Elemental Summoning, or just plain Elemental Summoning (only available to Druids and Clerics) and hope that the 10% of getting an Elemental Prince works for them?? Is there anyway for an arcane spellcaster to summon elemental princes

Or a deva for that matter, unless you mean a Planetar

 

In BG2 with the various superpowerful magic-draining items a berserker could actually be a threat to a sorcerer. Seems strange to me that he can read scrolls but I guess I've just forgotten that part about BG2.

Anyway, the fight would be pretty much like people have said here. Timestop making the crucial difference, as long as the berserker possessed weapons that would kill the sorcerer in an instant should he get close. Especially since in the case of a sorcerer, he could cast multiple timestops and improved alactrities in a row, effectively giving him a huge amount of time to deal direct damage to the berserker before even offering him a chance to heal let alone retaliate. Summoning spells would be useless against a lvl 40 berserker, he'd hack them to pieces in an instant. Basically all that you'd need to do is empty all magic missiles, acid arrows, flame arrows, skulltraps and such like on him during the time of the timestops.

Still, keep in mind this is BG2. Realistically, a mage of that level would have a hundred times the power a fighter of the same level / experience would.

 

I'd say the Sorcerer. Even though it all comes down to Time Stop, as Bard said. And if the sorcerer has the Robe of Vecna, and has a contingency set to trigger a bunch of protective spells (prot from both normal and magical weapons for example), it will give him enough time to pull off the Time Stop. Or, even better, if he has high wisdom, a Wish, and ask for the 2x Time Stop. Since hits are automatic during Time Stops, he might even be able to kill the berserker in meelee with a good weapon (Staff of the Magi?) and Haste.

 

In my experience, any magic user who has access to Time Stop can pwn the game sixways from sunday. Any spellcaster who doesnt however

Well, it all comes down to the persons handling the characters, because if the Sorcerer tries casting ABHW or Fireball at the Berserker while he's chopping away with, say, Axe of the Unyielding +5...

On the other hand, if the Berserker just clicks on the Sorcerer and leaves him to his own devices after...he is PWNED!

So...keeping all things equal, I would say the balance of the game would go towards the Sorcerer.

Effectively, if you want to give the characters the best items (Cloak of Cheese?), then it stands to reason that the Sorcerer should as well (Staff of the Magi, Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, Ring of Acuity, Ring of Wizardry, Boots of Speed, so on and so forth)

This way, the Sorcerer will whip the Berserker no matter what he tries, though he will take quite a while doing it. No competition.

Keeping the Sorc. naked while you give the Berserker items of legendary power...not fair! And the Sorcerer naked STILL can pwn the Berserker if played right.

So, in conclusion, the comparison between the two classes is laughable, to say the least.

 

Only the green ones. Any character (except wizard slayers) can use those. He can't use the standard mage or clerical scrolls.

 

I thought he could read the scrolls just not write them into his spell book. And Mystra's Chosen do you have an answer to my question because if there is a way a sorceror can perform those summons short of cheating i would like to hear it

 

@Thyorna
I think that they are talking about the Beserker casting Prot. Magic.

There are a few item forging mods which make cromwell/Cespenar be able to combine all of the elemental staffs (or rings) to enable them to summon an elemtall prince- grossly over powered.

I would give the title to the sorcerer. He has plently of time to cast invisibility before being attacked and then he can cast as many prot. spells as he likes before casting simulacrum and starting all over again.

 

I would go with the beserker. I mean, we know that the Sorcerer is one of if not the most powerful character in the game, but the items will swing it towards the beserker.

Cloak of Mirroring, Ring of Free Action, Boots of Speed, Helm of Charm Protection, ect.

There are enough items that can be combined with the beserk ability that will make magic useless against him.

Disagree. All of these would not effect the Beserker with the Cloak of Mirroring. Granted, the timestop would stop him for a time, but even the Sorcerer has a limited number of those. What is he going to do when all of his spells run out against the Beserker?

 

That does not have to be true.
The sorcerer has Wis 18 and uses Wish to get a full rest.

[ August 15, 2004, 11:48: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

I agree with Bard.

My view of the battle flow would be something like this:
The Sorcerer's greatest threat against the Berserker is Timestop. PoM (or a few equipment builds) destroys any possibility of the Sorcerer being able to do any decent magical damage against the Berserker, so it narrows down to Timestop+Shapechange/Polymorph Self+Tenser's Transformation+Relfected Image/Simulacrum+Summons.

If the Sorcerer decides to go Chain Contingencies with invisibilities, protections, etc. so he can cast Timestop he's as good as dead with items like the Ring of the Ram/Necklace of Missiles/Horn of Blasting/Wand of Magic Missile/Ring of Energy/PoM scroll. His casting will be disrupted (or in the case of PoM, permanently impaired), and when the Berserker starts acting like how Shura would use one of his Kensais in battle (Smite+Whirlwinds, etc) the Sorcerer is as good as dead.
But if the Sorcerer decides to play Illusionist/Enchanter, confusing the Berserker with images and the like, waiting patiently for the perfect time to strike he may have his chance sooner or later.
The only way the Sorcerer can win is to play the waiting game - that, or if he decides to fill the entire screen with images. (If he is successful with this, the Berserker's chance is lowered tremendously. At this point, it becomes a battle of luck and chance, in favor of the Sorcerer.)
The pressure is heavier on the Sorcerer, however - compared to the Berskerker any mistake that he makes - from the wrong spell being cast to lack of timing - can be fatal.

EDIT: Content

[ August 15, 2004, 11:50: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

I just did a test.
I equipped Sarevok with the Cloak of Mirroring and the Reflection Shield (just in case - it reflects missiles) and used a scroll of Protection from Magic on him.
Then I had a sorcerer cast Time Stop and pelt him with the missiles from Energy Blades.
I tried this twice and on both occasions Sarevok died after only one Time Stop.

Edited:
I made three more tests, this time without Time Stop.
Test 1: Only Cloak of Mirroring.
Test 2: Only Reflection Shield.
Test 3: Only scroll of Protection from Magic.
In all three tests did the Energy Blades hit Sarevok and nothing was reflected back on the sorcerer.

@Scythesong
"PoM", what is that?

[ August 15, 2004, 12:18: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

I think PoM might be Potion of Magic Blocking/Shielding. But, even if the Berserker uses this, the Sorc should still win. Project Image, Summon, Summon, Summon, Time Stop, etc, etc. The Sorc can keep the Berserker so swamped down in summons that the Sorc can take his time with Time Stop and then do what the hell he likes. I reckon GM, GM, GM, GM, Polymorph into Squirrel - what a just ending.