Berserker versus Sorcerer

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It's been a while (no kidding!) since I've posted, but I'll weigh in on this one.

As long as we're handing out the equipment of choice, at the word go, the sorcerer grabs the staff of the magi (Always!) and disappears. If his invisibility is dispelled, he re-equips the staff and disappears again. He can repeat this at will, while the berserker certainly runs out of ways to find him.

My recollection is that Chain Contingency casts instantaneously (even with the game paused), so the sorcerer doesn't need it active at the start of battle. Rather, he casts it (instantly) at the start, loads it with stoneskin, mirror image, and protection from magic weapons, and sets it to trigger on seeing an enemy. He re-equips the staff and disappears for the rest of round one. Round two, the timestop comes out in about two seconds and the battle is over.

The argument, then, is reduced to weather the berserker can do any damage to a mirror imaged, stoneskinned sorcerer who is immune to magical weapons in the .4 rounds between when the sorcerer begins casting (and becomes visible) and when the timestop goes off.

Even whirlwinded, that .4 round allows the berserker to perform just 4 attacks. The sorcerer will have far more than 4 images.

About the only option I see for the berserker is to whirlwind and fire arrows/bolts of biting, or other elemental missiles. Hope that they aren't considered magical (which some might be--this can be checked), and hope for a luck hit on the real sorcerer. (Remember that there is a small % chance of a mirror imaged opponent being hit instead of one of the images). Then the elemental/poison damage goes through the stoneskin and disrupts the spell.

Unless someone suggests another tactic for the berserker, I'd say he has a 5% chance (at best) of disrupting the timestop. However, if he does, the sorcerer grabs the staff again and disappears. He fires another chain contingency, and the process starts again.

Under these conditions, I don't see the berserker winning. Ever.

 

Yes, Protection f Magic Weapons is a killer especially since you're already immune to normal weapons due to the Tear of Bhaal reward.
You can breach that with a Wand of Spellstriking assuming that you can see the target.

I think the True Sight from the Book of Infinite Spells lasts 10 rounds just like any other True Sight and this means that either the sorcerer spends those ten rounds casting Invisibility, Impr Invisibility, Shadow Door, Mislead once per round - which is boring but efficient - or he casts SI: Divination.

 

Point well taken, although it is still 1.4 rounds. The CC goes off immediately, yes, but the sorcerer cannot cast another spell that round (unless he has alacrity/improved alacrity, which is not the case here). So you cannot start casting time stop until round 2. So.... 1.4 rounds total. It doesn't really weaken your arguement any though - Whether the Beserker has 0.4 or 1.4 rounds, the odds are against him.

 

@ Grey: Or, instead of casting those spells, he just re-equipps The Staff.
@ Aldeth(sp?): I think he meant that, while the sorc is invisible, the berserker can't do anything and therefore has just lost a round.

 

Keep in mind that the sorcerer is invisible again as soon as he casts the contingency at the beginning of round one (before the contingency even fires). The berserker can only effectively use the wand of spell striking in round two when the sorcerer reappears. However, using the wand is the berserker's entire action for round two, and the timestop goes off. The sorcerer is stripped from his protections, but they've done their job, and the fight, again, is over.

 

I don't believe the Sorc would kill the Berserker in one Time Stop, he would need at least two. The Berserker has huge hit points and can equip tons of equipment that reduce physical, magical and elemental damage. Can he equip enough to negate all (or nearly all) damage?

I am certain some weapon effects work through protections like stoneskin. I know my mages still take some damage with stoneskins up.

So, we have some weapons that may or may not prove useful (can anyone confirm whether these work through stoneskins and other protections?) ...

Answerer +4 -> magic res -15%, -2 AC
Foebane +5 -> each successful hit casts Larloch's Minor Drain
Usuno's Blade -> 10% chance 2D10 electricl damage
Silver Sword -> 25% chance save vs death(-2) or die
Gram the Sword of Grief +6 -> 10% chance 2D12 poison, save vs death(-5) or lose level
Axe of Unyielding+5 -> 10% chance instant kill
K'logarath +4 -> save vs death or get knocked down and take 2D6 extra damage
Flail of Ages -> slowed plus elemental damage
Storm Star +5 -> 5% chance chain lightning
Dragon's Breath +4 -> +1 all elemental damage
Wave Halberd +4 -> 15% chance +15 damage
Ravager +6 -> 10% chance instant kill
Ixil's Spike +6 -> save or pinned 3 rounds + 1D6+5 damage

There are plenty of weapons here that might work if the timing is right. The instant kill weapons are very nice and probably the best choice. Immunities are a problem, but I believe +6 weapons can still bypass Absolute Immunity (ooh - +5 as well, I just checked).

About some of the protections ...
Mirror Image - there is still a % chance of actually hitting the mage
Stoneskin - protects from physical attacks not elemental attacks
Improved Mantle - immune to +3 or lower
Absolute Immunity - immune to +4 or lower

I think now, that maybe it isn't so cut-and-dry that a Sorc will win and with a bit of patience and luck the Berserker could get in there. Also, the Berserkers saving throws are going to be really, really, low so should save against a lot of spells.

 

None of those will get through protection from magical wepons, however. And, just hitting the sorcerer through the mirror images will be a problem.

Once the timestop goes off, the sorcerer has plenty of ways to prevail, and can cast another timestop to prolong the duration (I assume; someone want to verify this).

It seems from above that there isn't (or shouldn't be) any disagreement that it's over once the timestop is cast.

 

Yes, anything with elemental damage will get through stoneskin. Yes, absolute immunity gives protection from +4 or lower weapons. However, PfMW gives protection up to +5 weapons, so only the +6 weapons on that list will do you any good - and that's a pretty short list. Of those possible, only Gram has any elemental damage associated with it.

Bard, I agree that the Beserker could have a fighting chance, but only if he has the ability to actually see the mage. As it stands, I don't see how he will, and until we can circumvent this issue, making an arguement in favor of the beserker is going to be difficult.

 

Let's say the Sorcerer has Stoneskin on before the battle and uses his CC with Pf Magic Weapons (essential to protect against the weapons Bard listed), Mislead, and Mirror Image. He begins the casting for Time Stop ASAP, for a total of 1.4 rounds before Time Stop activates.

As soon as the Berserker sees the Sorcerer, he begins casting True Sight from the Book of Infinite Spells. With a casting time of 8, he has one attack before the Time Stop kicks in. No more Mislead and Mirror Image, but not enough time for Ring of the Ram, Ring of Energy, or any item/special ability. The Sorcerer does not have enough time to cast SIivination or any immunity to elemental damage.

So what can damage the Sorcerer with Stoneskin and PfMW in one attack? Arrows of Detonation can do it, since it's not considered magical and the immunity from +1 weapons or less from the Tear of Bhaal will not stop it from detonating.

[ August 17, 2004, 18:32: Message edited by: Drumheller ]

 

@fubini: I agree, in fact I think I was the first to say it in this thread, that it is all over once Time Stop is cast.

But, I don't believe it should be this simple. Otherwise no one would ever win against any mage. My arguments, aren't about how powerful the Sorc is as we know this, but what tactics can the Berserker use against the Sorc.

After all, a solo Fighter is meant to be able to beat Irenicus and he uses Time Stop, so there must be strategies that work.

The Sorcs spells won't last forever and there are only so many PfMW that can be cast, so the Berserker does have a chance.

What about Axe of Unyielding in one hand and a Normal Axe in the other? Is the weapons elemental damage nullified by PfMW as well?
Casting summons (what few can be cast) will help take down the mirrors and stoneskins.

So come on guys, there must be something we are missing.

Ring of Spell Turning will rebound a Abi-Dalzims back onto the Sorc wont it? So this will be a first counter. There is an item that gives some stoneskins as well.

Some more items that may prove useful...

Potions of explosion/oil of fiery burning. This is good elemental damage, without having to be targeted.

Moon Dog figurine can see through all forms of illusions.

Potion of Icedust???

Wand of Sleep
Wand of Cursing
Rod of Reversal

Black Spider Figurine - Kitthix can cast web

Book of Infinite Spells - Spell Turning

Horn of Silence
Horn of Blasting (the Berserker should be able to save againt this)

[ August 17, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: Bard ]

 

OOoooooooh!

The Moon Dog Figurine - good thinking. That gets rid of the illusions, and gives your book of infinite spells an option besides True Sight. However, how long does it take the Moon Dog to activate, and then detect the illusion? I imagine we're talking at least the beginning of round two. Generally speaking, I like the potions idea - that could work - and the horn of silence - or even using Namarra's special ability of silence 15' radius, could throw a major wrench in the works. Sure he could cast Vocalize (if the sorcerer knows this spell - not likely), but chances are you would get the silence off in the second round, while he was casting time stop. Time stop would fizzle, and he couldn't cast vocalize until round 3, and then no other spell to help him (offensively) until round 4. We may have something here...

The one magical, one non magical weapon tactic does you no good, because we're assuming the sorcerer has finished SoA and got the Tear of Bhaal that protects against weapons of +1 or less. PfMW also nullifies elemental damage if the weapon can't hit, neither can the elemental damage unless you're talking Gram +6.

EDIT: The one major problem is that the sorcerer basically has unlimited spells in terms of the number (but not the type of spells) he can cast. Assuming he has a decent wisdom and has wish as a spell, he's money, as he can get all of his spells back.

 

The Moon Dog Figurine is an interesting idea, and since Moon Dog Sight is activated by the dog and not the summoner it should be effective before round one ends. The Berserker needs a good Ranger friend to lend it to him, though .

@Aldeth
Silence won't work if the Sorcerer is wearing the Amulet of Power (permanent Vocalize). IIRC Gram is +5, not +6.

@Bard
I think the debate of Berserker vs. Sorcerer is a special case. The reason even solo fighters can defeat mages in BG2 (even with their multiple illegal triggers/contingencies) is no AI is as intelligent as a human player. Irenicus doesn't chase you if you're out of sight during his Time Stop, and it's practically impossible for a fighter to disrupt that casting considering the protections he has in place: Stoneskin, Absolute Immunity, Protection from Energy, Spell Shield, and Spell Trap.

[ August 17, 2004, 20:51: Message edited by: Drumheller ]

 

Moon Dog is gone with a death spell (instant cast in round two with vecna and amulet). Staff restores invisibility, timestop comes out in round three.

Do +6 weapons really defeat protection from *magical* weapons? That seems horribly flawed to me, but if that's the case, we'll go with it.

It still seems like the berserker gets 4 attacks to do damage against a protected-beyond-belief sorcerer. Area damage from potions/items will be nullified by the mirror images (or at least that seems to be the consensus.)

@Bard
Speculating about the berserker's options for protection against magic doesn't get us anywhere. He will necessarily have a vulnerability to *something* that the sorcerer can exploit, whether it's energy blades, shapechange, area damage spells, or something else.

...

Again, the discussion is necessarily one of what can be done by the berserker to prevent the timestop from going off in the second round. That is, how do you do damage to the sorcerer in the first half of round two. The best suggestion so far seems to be the arrow of detonation, but does anyone know what happens if this is fired at a mirror-imaged target? Arrows of dispelling might have a chance, too, but won't those also just hit the images to no other effect.

Remember, the berserker gets, at most, 4 attacks on a visible sorcerer before timestop is cast.

 

@Drumheller

Good point with the amulet - we can't silence him.

Gram is a +5 weapon when you find it, but Cespenar can upgrade it to +6.

@Fubini

While it may seem flawed, protection from magical weapons protects you from everything but +6. Keep in mind that in real 2nd Edition, there was no such thing as a +6 weapon, so in essence, PfMW did protect you from everything. I do not know if this was done for balancing reasons or whatever, but +6 works. In fact, if you read the spell description, I believe it say that PfMW protects against all form of magical weapons up to +5 enchantment - which should be everything - but isn't in ToB.

 

Pf Magical weapons protects against all magical weapons. It is Absolute Immunity that is limited to +5 or less.

 

@Aldeth
I'm pretty sure that Gram is +5 even after Cespenar's upgrade. It's a moot point since PfMW protects against it.

 

Okay, I've just done some quick tests ...

PfMW protects from all magic weapons including +6. Tested against the Ravager+6 and it also prevented the elemental damage.

With Mirror Image and Stoneskin active I chucked a few Potions of Explosions at Imoen. The mirror images prevented her from taking damage, but once these were gone then she was easy prey.

With Mislead cast and no other protections, Imoen still took full damage from the potions of explosions. She also took damage and got knocked back by the Horn of Blasting (and with mirror images).

 

Potentialy Unconsidered Weapons to Use Against Sorcerer:

Morningstar +2: The Sleeper
Combat Ability: Any human or demi-human, excluding elves, hit by the Sleeper must save vs. poison with a +4 bonus or fall asleep for 18 seconds.

Mace +1: Ardulia's Fall
Combat Ability: A creature hit by this mace must make a saving throw vs. spells at +3 or be slowed for 12 seconds.

Bolt of Polymorphing
Special: save vs. petr/poly or turn into squirrel (not hard to avoid, but may hinder the Sorcerer if successful)

Dagger +4, Life-Stealer
Effect: 15% Chance of Level Drain

Halberd +4 Blackmist
Special Abilities:
Blindness: Three times a day save vs. spells
Area: 10 foot radius

Joril's Dagger +3
Combat Abilities:
25% chance of each hit confusing an opponent for three rounds (save vs. spells to negate effect)

Everard's Morning Star +2
Combat Ability: 50% chance per hit of making targeted spellcaster lose one spell from memory


Potentialy Unconsidered Items to Use Against Sorcerer:

Jade Hound
Special Abilities: Summon Astral Hound for five minutes, once each day, with the following abilities:
1 and 1/2 attacks per round for 2d4, 20% chance to Level Drain, 20% chance to Slow, non-cumulative.

Control Circlet (From Illithid's)
A circlet of alien metal that dominates even the most powerful of minds and leaves them defenceless. (Not quite sure about the saving throw on this)

 

Okay not sure if this works, but all the marbles are with the sorc at this point. I once heard you are able to use wands as a fighter by pauzing the game, click on a potion to drink it and then putting a wand in that slot. Don't know if this really works, but if it does work, you could use a wand of cloudkill, since this works through ANY protection anyone could set up.

Or you could use the moondog like bard said and use the protection from magic scroll on the sorc the moment he is visible. Don't know the casting time, but hopefully it's quicker then timestop.

I do think this discussion could have gone about a vanilla fighter vs sorc, seeing as nobody uses any of the berserkers abilities in their solutions, only magical items he could have.

 

I think the Illithid control circlets will charm a creature regardless of saves or magic resistance. I tried using one on demogorgon and it said in the text area that he was charmed, only I never got actual control of him.