Are Fighters useless? in PvM NOT PvP

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This is not a PvP thread it has nothing to do with who can do the most melee damage in the least time, it is to do with what character is the most dead weight for a party as in the most unneeded character

If anyone wants to insult me for this I ask you to read what I have to say first.

I'm talking at mid (16-25) to high (26+) levels. Are Fighters even needed? just look at Viconia at level 20+ she could easily beat any Fighter except Keldorn just by casting spirit armour four times... well yes it's nice to have the Celestial Fury and the Carsomyr but all the other classes can be more useful then most fighters without any special weapons, so let's compare fighters with the main general classes

Fighter: with some Items and buffs they can take the front lines easily, but are restricted to straight up melee and usually die quickly without assistance due to lack of spell casting ability.

Cleric: essential to all partys in high level difficult fights and can make themselves immune to physical damage with Armour of faith to the point of 100+ where hits actually heal them, they also have great thac0 and HP with spells and improved hasted can get up to 4(?) attacks a round when dual weilding.

Theives: These guys are absolute horrors to everything not immune to backstab especially fighters and mages, IF you use them to their proper potential otherwise they are useless in a fight. apart from backstab you need these guys for traps (there's spells for locks) and there are some good pick pocket oppurtunities, their ability to lay traps certaintly is very useful and their UAI is great as well partly because of some of the Bard only items which can turn battles against some of the hardest fights against the odds into a slaughter.

Mages: These guys can't really be compared to a fighter even if they are potentially so much better then the fighter

So why exactly should we take fighters when even the Cleric can beat them in Melee, and the theives are more versatile? they might make good dual class and multi characters but I honestly can't see any reason to justify taking a pure fighter or one of the kits other then for a challange, if you want the Celestial fury and Carsomyr then the Blade can use both of these and be more versatile and powerful then even a Kensai (damage wise) could ever dream of.

So I guess you could say that I think Fighters are the most pointless characters in the game and there is nothing to ustify taking one except your looking for a challange, something different or stupidity.

[ January 03, 2004, 03:59: Message edited by: casey ]

 

A Fighter with good saving throws and decent items will beat a Cleric of the same level any day of the week. Unless the thief has looots of invisibility potions (not forgetting fighters can use these aswell), I can't see him beating a pure fighter. No way.

Of the above, only the Mage would have a chance of beating a pure fighter. Where as a Sorcerer would just decimate him in a few rounds.

Remember... protections wear off after time. A fighter will just wait the time out and sieze the opportunity when it comes (have you ever mixed Kensai's 'Kai' ability with Great Whirlwind? Pure devastation.

Don't make the mistake of underestimating the damage a high level fighter can inflict in only a short space of time.

But, as you say yourself, I think Fighters are best used in a multi/dual class situation, where you get the best of both worlds. Just imagine a fighter/thief using the 'backstab damage in melee' ability (i forget the name) then activating Greater Whirlwind. Sheesh.

 

I'd say it depends on the strategy. It could be possible for a cleric to defeat a fighter, remember they have better summoning spells and a great amount of buff and healing. I think that the spell casters are stronger at higher levels than fighters in general but you still need the fighters to hold back the monsters in melee so that the casters can focus on casting and not worry about spell disruption or defense.

 

Morsmordre: I know perfectly well how powerful a fighter can get it was my first character ever. And also how can a fighter beat a fully buffed Cleric? unless the fighter has someway of getting rid of all the clerics buffs and possible 200% damage resistance he won't be able to put a scratch on the Cleric, about the only classes that could would be the Paladin with the right weapons, or the archer with the called shot to stat drain their str to death, which would take a lot of hits potentially.

Btw Morsmordre I'm not saying I don't like them because from a sentimental view I'm quite fond of them but I don't think they have any purpose at all that the Cleric, Mage and thief combo cannot handle.

Rastilin: you can get a wand of monster summoning before chapter two and in general it's 50 charges can keep throwing out fodder as long as you want, plus you don't need to share xp with them. And like I said figter classes are not the only characters that can tale the brunt of the front lines, I have a Blade in ToB who's almost max level and he's 140 hp+ without tensers.

 

Fighter HLA: Smite

Fighter HLA: Greater Whirlwind

Cleric/Druid = Chunks regardless of whatever buffs are up.

Thief = Chunks from smite alone, no time to drink potion of invisibility. Or the thief gets a backstab in, the fighter shrugs it off and smites the thief. Followed by Greater whirlwind.

Bard = buffs and buffs and gets a Smite in the face. Stands stock still while Greater Whirlwind tears him to shreds.

Besides, in 2nd edition, pure fighters have supreme saving throws against everything. That is their other advantage over the other warrior subclasses like paladins and barbarians besides weapon mastery.

But then, since magic is so overpowered in BG, fighters can't beat sorcerers (lame) and wizards.

Anyway, every party always needs someone at the front to keep the heat off the casters and rogues. Unless you reload frequently and come into every battle fully buffed and rest after every fight.

BTW: You have insulted my favorite D&D class! Prepare to be sacrificed to Bhaal!

 

Clerics cannot get 200% damage resistance. Spells do have a level 20 cap (ie. You're over level 20, you still cast every spell as a level 20 character).

Out of those, a mage could beat a fighter, a cleric could if he prepared ahead of time, thief could not, bard could (but once again, he'd have to have a contigency or something prepared ahead of time, just like mage).

 

Fighters can use the best weapon in the game. Its called the axe of unyielding +5. When you combine this weapon with one or two whirlwinds tour cleric will die, regardless of any buffs. Anyway a much better fighter is the ranger cleric, who can cast the very useful druid buff spell iron skins. Pure cleric cannot even compare to anything in terms of melee. Yes they can buff, but they get one measly attack per round, which they can improve with any weapon avaliable to their use. Their thaco might be low enough to hit the fighter, but they wont be able to hit him often enough. If its a kensai the clerics already dead btw. Kensai dual weilding axe + belm or kundane gets 5 attacks per round. So thats 15 attacks in two rounds if you decide sparing whirl wind. The chances of vorpal effect are over 100%. And of course the kensai will always hit the cleric, regardless of cleric ac, because their thaco will be like -15.

Its just the fact of the matter that fighters and all their subclasses can use weapons that no other class is capable of using efficiently. Sure cleric/theives can use that same axe, but they will weild it horribly. Btw, let me point out that this axe regenerates very quickly, so that even if the cleric gets lucky enough to get hits, the wounds will seal.

In case your wondering what weapons? Foebane, purifier and caromsyre (paladin weapons), Gram the sword of Grief, and ravager (the absolute most damaging weapon in the game, and also has a vorpal effect.)

 

Why are we simulating one on one battles between the fighter and the other classes to determine the usefulness of a fighter in this game? I don't think that is a valid evaluation of a fighter's usefulness IMHO (unless that is what casey anticipated upon making this thread).

I would define "uselessness" as follows: what attribute does a fighter bring to a party that cannot be equaled by other class(es) in this game? (Note that specific scenario arguments from ToB is valid here or else we'd be debating this for general fighters in RPGs in the Playground Forum)

If the answer is nothing, then the fighter is useless since the other classes could easily make up for the lack of a fighter.

I think casey's point in a nutshell is fighters can go toe-to-toe and kill stuff. Clerics with their buffs and high armour can too. Thieves can too, but in a more roundabout way. Mages we know already. So if other classes can handle themselves in melee, why bother with the fighter? (ie: the fighter's ability to melee in combat is equalled by other classes, so he is useless)

Just presenting a different view on the topic.

[ January 02, 2004, 19:36: Message edited by: Blog ]

 

I find fighters very useless. My first time through I worked with a very magic/cleric party and I wasn't actually able to get very far in the last conflict since magical resistance is so popular among enemies and since you can't sleep inbetween those 7 fights once they're gon they're gone.

I remember having a hard time throughout SoA and ToB, but now I'm using a tank party with very little magic and I'm flying thorugh the game quite easily.

 

Instead of using a pure fighter use a barbarian. They move two points faster then other characters and with the Barbarian Rage, magic becomes just about useless.

 

Fighters useless? Bah! I've had pure fighters that could go toe-to-toe with dragons and take on liches solo. You just gotta know how to equip them and how to fight with them.
Oh, and you're basing your entire argument on PvP combat, not the party against AI controlled opponents. If you want to debate who's best in PvP we could sit here 'till we're blue in the face as each class has their strengths and weaknesses we can exploit. But then the game isn't against other players is it? You're going up against AI opponents and each class in the game is given the resources to take these guys down, you just need to find them.

 

A cleric could wipe the floor with any fighter provided the cleric prepared spells spcifically for combatting fighters. However since clerics are the healers of any party they tend to stock up on the cure spells rather than the offensive spells.

You don't appreciate fighters because you don't notice what they are doing because the order to tell them what to do is so simple. [Select fighter] [Left click enemy]. Wow that Dragon's Breath spell did wicked damage. Well the only reason your mage was able to cast that spell is because the fighter kept those 3 beholders and 5 vampires occupied long enough for the mage to cast it.

 

I though I explained why fighter could beat cleric regardless of buffs...? Anyway, to adress PvM combat, a fighter does far more raw damage to monsters than any other class on a consistent basis. Yes mage has some nice aoe spells, but they hurt the party and he only has so many spells. A fighter in the late game period may consistently do over 60-100 damage per round. This is an insane amount and Im not even counting WW or GWW! Cleric can never compare to that much damage, yes clerics buffs are nice, but not neccessary by any means. Sure cleric can improve himself but thats not really a big deal imo. They still will never match fighter in raw damage out put. Thus the purpose of cleric is to buff the party as a whole, and heal. Clerics make fighters better fighters, they cannot fight themselves. Pure clerics are incapable of ever beating any monster as efficiently as a fighter, regardless of any buff. Fighter hlas underscore this even more so. To overestimate the cleric by saying they can beat fighters in PvP isnt very smart. Buffs dont last forever, and when their gone you still have ****ty melee class left.

 

Well I have to say that I'm glad that there are at least to people that are open minded enough to not jump to conclusions. I know that I might not have made myself clear enough since I am used to talking to people I know face to face, and we usually know each other well enough to not have to phrase everything perfectly to get a point across, so if I was too vauge it's because I'm not used too takling on message boards.

@ everyone except Blog and Niskers

I am not comparing who is better then the other I'm comparing who is most to least useful for a party, and the point I was making was, that if a Cleric, Mage and thief party is used right they can handle everything without fighters, including melee even if Fighters can use more weapons and get more attacks. But on that note I'll let you in on a little secret.

Swashbuckler+Dual weild=2 attacks a round+ UAI& Belm AND Scarlet Ninja-to= 4 attacks a round, so tecnically this should mean Improved Haste will make it 8 attacks a round.

With the Swashbucklers UAI ac and damage modifiers, could be almost as damaging as any fighter except the kensai and probably even more later on and better ac.

The fighter might be able to use axe of unyeilding but so can the Swashbuckler, the fighter gets an extra 2 attacks a round but I think 8 is enough to get the job done.

The Fighter has greater HP well the Swashbuckler could last just as long with his +8 ac and he can lay traps, the Fighters Smite ability? Well for one it's a one use a day and the Swashbuckler can use the Harp of Pandemonium which when Malisond knocks back all enemies in the area and confuses most of them... the Fighter has no superior answer to that I belive.

The Blade can easily beat both of them together but that's disscused to death to the point of no revival.

Also where did I say PvP? it's a game against the computer not another player unless one day they manage to make an ai script for all characters that equals a PvP fight there is no point.

There is nothing about theese quotes to suggest PvP, and tbh they point towards the exact opposite.

You can't compare a Mage with the Fighter any more then you can with a Thief so why bother?

Read above.

Armour of Faith stacks to get as much resistance you want.

Read my comments on the Swashbuckler

@ Blog that's more or less what I'm saying, yes.

Show me where exactly I said PvP in my original post? I said who is more useful not who would win in PvP.

Dragons Breath and Comet has a casting time of 4 and a single charge from a wand of monster summoning is more then enoguh time to keep anyone busy, and by the time you can cast level ten spells you will have things like Plantars who can easily last a few rounds unaided.

If I was comparing them in PvP I'd have it in the topics title or I'd start a Fighter vs Cleric thread.

WW and GWW are a waste of a HLA imo you can do better with improved haste and Critical strike unless your using two handed weapons.

 

What? GWW a waste of a HLA? It's the 2nd best warrior HLA (Smite coming first). Improved haste has an effect that comes close but you can't just activate improved haste on a warrior at will. GWW can be activated instantly and gives you the chance to deal 10 attacks in one round. You can time 10 attacks on a mage just when his immunity to magical weapons goes down and make mince-meat out of him.

 

A small comment about Swashbuckler's Whirlwind Attack: if your swashbuckler equips a weapon which provides an extra attack, like Scarlet Ninja-to or Belm, and you activate the WWA, you'll get *1* attack per round. Yes, ONE. I discovered that while my swashy equiped Daystar + Belm and activate WWA and hit Bhodi only ONE hit per round. Soon I found out that if you unequip the Belm you'll get 10 attack that round again. So poor Bhodi got hacked by my daystar 10 times, each with near 40 damage.

 

Yesiree, that why I only use foebane when I whirwind with my swash. Anyway swash is nice and all, but he still cant even come close to comparing to a fighter in combat, his saving throws are abysmal without equipment of all sorts, and even then its hard to get his saving throws under 0, even with nice equipment. This is of course assuming you give him everything, instead of sharing the wealth. Ide much rather have kangaxx ring on my cleric (since this your main melee guy) then theif.

Fighter does not encounter this problem. Furthermore fighter kits are very intersting. Kensai is technically the most versatile melee user in the game. Far more versatile than swash. First of all with his innate bonuses he can weild any weapon in the game with sufficient power. Not proficient with bastard swords but still wanna throw on foebane? No problem, his base thaco is high as hell. For example, at 4 million experience, fighter level 24, a kensai will be able to weild a weapon he has not a single profiecieny point in, thats unenchanted at -9 thaco. Provided he has 18 strength. Now add enchantments and you dont even have to worry about your thaco, not matter what weapon you weild ever. Ok you say, but what about his attacks per round. Whirlwind and switch back to your regular weapon then. The point is he is versatile enough to use any weapon in the game except for a few class restricted weapons that most theives (except one weapon) would be unable to weild effectively anyway.

Berserker is far too well known for me to have to go into detail about.

Wizard slayer really comes into his own nicely in tob with WW attack as well. Why you ask? Because provided you can see that pesky wizard, you can whirlwind and snipe him 10 times so that he can never cast a spell again! Remember, regardless of what protections that hit will still kill his casting efficiency. And with the insane fighter thacos avaliable to you, he will always hit that wizard with pitiful ac. Even before tob he can drop most wizards out of a fight in 2 rounds. That allows them to get off at most 1-2 spells, unless they cast time stop. In which case your magic resistance + items keeps your slayer safe.

Im not saying your point doesnt have validity, it certianly does. But Ill never be the person who uses pure clerics to get up in there and melee it out. Multi or dual classed clerics are a different story, and you'll never hear me say a fighter could beat an R/C in a million years. But a pure cleric is nothing to applaud.

And please, dont tell me that pure theives except for swash can ever melee effectively. They cant. Their hp is far too low, if they wear plates they lose the ability to use their theiving skills (at least I think they do, not positive on that, going on the fact that they cant hide in shadows with plates on.) thus their ac wont ever be high enough to go toe to toe with tob opponents. Swash is another thing entirely and can be considered a F/T for all purposes, a weak fighter theif for that matter, although more theiving points. Thats why swashes fit nicely in parties, but you solo F/T's.

 

Abomination

if you could choose between 8 attacks a round all doing critical hits and 10 attacks a round just doing normal damage what would you pick? thats like the difference between CS+improved haste which lasts a lot longer then GWW and picking GWW for a measly 2 extra attacks a round, the best use for GWW would be with a wiz slayer or an archer + Called shot, but as usual it depends on style.

And what if you use both?


Let me put this in a different hypothetical way.

There's a hot air balloon with a Fighter a Cleric, a Theif and a Mage, these four are in a war and need to go launch a suprise attack on an enemy castle (hot air baloons were probably not invented then but it's hypothetical only) this castle is riddled with traps (you need theives for this and there the best scouts) and patrols inside and is full of mages (so you need your own mage to kill them and dispel there defense) and there will be heavy fighting so Clerics are needed, and the fighter is straight forward enough.
These people can take anything they want with them in reason so nothing outside of BGII and nothing stupid like cosmetics or whatever that they will not need but with all this gear with them it can only safely carry 3 of them, now in real life if it was the military they would throw away anything that's not needed so who in your opinions are essential to succeeding in this attack?

Also just to complicate things any class or kit is valid as long as it covers the prerequistes and no M/C or D/C characters.

 

The mage, the fighter, the cleric. Use summons to set off traps. Bust open with cleric and crom faeyr. Fighter and cleric will provide a much better melee wall than cleric and theif as your implying.

Or better yet just go in with your sorcerer who memorized wish (I just threw that in for fun )

 

Hmm, let's see. Your mages and clerics are gonna run out of spells pretty quick and since this place is packed with enemies resting is suicide. As for a thief, he'll get one backstab in before he's torn apart. So who do I go in with? Easy; Monk with a Ring of Gaxx and Ring of Regeneration.