All the Classes VS the Bard

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A mod will probably flay me alive for this, but I decided to cook up something drastic in favor of the Bards. BG2 is slowly fading... so at least this might give people the chance to know that there had existed an overpowered class where it had been least expected.

First Round.
Bard VS Sorcerer

SCENARIO:
There are three ways these two classes can clash:
A) Sorcerer attacks Bard
B) Bard attacks Sorcerer or Sorcerer and Bard attack each other at the same time

Given the cases above, different sequences will ensue.

Given the case of SCENARIO A, the Sorcerer's as good as dead unless he's miraculously Immune to Timestop Traps (or any other Trap, for that matter).
The Bard can then have all the time in the world cutting the Sorcerer to pieces.
One can respond in three favorable ways:
a)Cast Protection from Magical Weapons or a similar spell beforehand
b)Cast Spell Imunityivination and Invisibility
c)Cast Protection from Magical Weapons or a similar spell and Spell Immunityivination


If one chooses to do a) or c) don't forget that there exists an overpowered weapon in the game of which there is no protection against - Carsomyr +6. Even Absolute Immunity will not save a Sorcerer from Carsomyr. And considering the Sorcerer is stuck in time...

If one chooses to do b) the result is a stalemate. Bards can cast Spell Immunityivination and Invisibility too. But if the Sorcerer decides to tempt the fates and show himself, SECTION B applies.

Things begin to shape up in SCENARIO B. It's the Sorcerer VS a Bard in full buffiness.
Contingencies and Chain Contingencies (and a few items I doubt sorcerers can use and would consider using)should grant both classes split-second invulnerabilities.
The result of buffs is that both classes are now Immune to every Spell there is... But the same does not hold true for melee.
The Bard just happens to be able to wield Carsomyr +6, eliminating any hope of the Sorcerer's chance for survival. The Sorcerer can cast all the High-Level HLA's he likes - though I really doubt he can. A simple twist of Ring of the Ram or Ring of Energy and all his hopes go down the drain.
The Sorcerer can use the Ring of the Ram on The Bard too, but the result will be SECTION A unless the Sorcerer runs off after the Bard - which means he can't cast his spell without letting the Bard out of his sight. This is bad, since the Bard will still have the remaining Ring of Energy/Ram, depending on what I had used to disrupt the Sorcerer's initial Spellcasting. Once the Bard starts banging on the Sorcerer, the only recourse the Sorcerer has is to flee.

The only way the Sorcerer can win this battle is via blind luck - be it a keyboard mis-press or the Bard casting the wrong spells.

 

Too bad BG2 is not a bard vs. sorcerer duel. I have never played either sorceror or bard. I could someday try sorcerer, but somehow I dislike bards. My personal preference goes to thieves. Trapfinding/disarming, lockpicking, snares, pickpocketing, backstabbing.. Me like! Maybe I someday feel myself a little rebel, and find dualling my thief into a bard.. Just maybe.

 

People often preceive bards as a jack of all trades, but master of none. And when they compare them to F/M/T, most people will agree with me, that the F/M/T is a better choice cause he can do nearly all the things a bard can do but better. Better THAC0, cast more spells, more theif abilities, but doens't get bard song, and very high lore (but still reasonable).

But back to sorcerers vs bards.

Well if this is indeed the first round of combat, how will the bard have set traps, and if he tries to set them up in the 1st round while the sorcerer is attacking him, then he will jus failto lay them.

The srocere wil be able to cast timestop in the heat of battle, the bard aswell, but he will have to be luckily enough to find a timestop scroll.

Also i think there is a 9th level spell avaliable to a sorcerer that strips someone of all their protections.

Also a tenser transformation followed by black blade of disaster should be something for the bard to watch out for.

 

I never played a bard because I just saw him as a thief with spells, a song, and no ability to lock pick.

I wqant someone less 'Jack of all Trades' and more specialized men, like the sorcerer, who by the way, could beat the bard down before he could pluck a string.

The bard just doesn't have the magical ability to stand up to a sorcerer.

 

@Scythesong Immortal: I see you are counting on a very good property of the Carsomyr, namely dispeling sorcerer's protections. You forgot that a sorcerer can do the same with Staff of the Magi, it has even more chances to do so. Yes, you can wield Carsomyr, but you are not proficient. And any sane wizard would not travel without his stoneskin activated (a Sorcerer can select a Level 4 spell at the beginning of the game, which in my case will always be Stoneskin). So let's suppose you could set off that time stop trap (which I don't see how, you can't set traps with monsters nearby, and we don't talk about a "party friendly" match; the sorcerer is supposed to have a red circle activated, it seems right to me this way)... Do you know what will happen? I'll tell you. You freeze time for one round (in fact, for you it will be two rounds), time that you will spend by making futile atempts to hit me. Taking in consideration the speed you will have wielding the weapon, you won't have more than two attacks per round. That's two hits. Two! And let say that you may succeed to dispel my Stoneskin (which is a bug, in terms of AD&D speaking, you cannot bring down my Stoneskin with a Dispel Magic; must use Breach), your time stop spell will soon over and my Sorcerer will "get back to life" . It would be piece of cake for me to just cast another protective spell (I am a Sorcerer, remember? I have plenty of spells, more than any other spell caster), but this time you will not be able to set another trap (I told you why) so it will be a matter of choices of mine of how soon and what your death shall be. And it is not that I won the battle because of my superior spell casting, but by the failure that a bard is at wielding a two handed weapon.

 

How about this:

Scenario A: Sorcerer attacks Bard.

Sorcerer casts Timestop -> Bard is helpless
Sorcerer casts Improved Alacrity (with Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, he will be casting a lot of spells during this timestop)
Sorcerer casts Spellstrike -> Bard is unprotected
Sorcerer casts Lower Resistance 3 times -> Bard has no more MR
Sorcerer casts Dragon's Breath
Now the sorc has 3 level 9/10 spells left (if he is level 40)
We are going to play safe, so we'll cast Wish until we get the rest option. Very big chance we'll get that with three wish spells. If not, we will probably get double length timestop + alacrity. Either way, when the first timestop threatens to run out, a second one is cast and now we can go on casting offensive spells on the unprotectef bard.
Even if the bard did set traps (which seems unlogical, since the sorcerer is attacking him and it would be weird for him to lay traps if he isn't attacked), the sorcerer doesn't need to set them off, because he doesn't need to move.

But of course there are ways for the bard to win a duel to a sorcerer. I'm just saying that once the sorc casted timestop, it's all over.

You can't determine the outcome of a duel between classes, because there are many different ways to fight. In my opinion, the character that attacks has by far the most chance. Why? Spellcasters would be disrupted by an unanticipated attack, fighters would be ruined by a timestop, you could backstab...
I think spellcasters would have a great advantage if you would get to buff before the duel and in that case, the sorcerer and the mage are probably the best, because they have more spells to strip the other of their protections. But if the Bard has a timestop scroll, he could also kill any sorcerer if he got it off before the sorc.

 

Pro Magic Weapons will protect won't it?

Summons can absorb the traps can't they?

Project Image will keep the Bard busy for a while I suspect, particularly if the Bard thinks it's the real Sorcerer.

Power Word Blind will blind the Bard instanty..

Imprisonment would see the Bard defeated wouldn't it?

The Bard could protect from these things seperately but not at once.

Surely all the Sorcerer has to do is look at the Bards intent, and then cast something applicable.

 

@ Scythesong

Maybe you should put you theory to the test and try it out in a multiplayer game. Use shadowkeeper to create a high-level bard (blade kit probably ) and sorcerer with the right equipment and test it out.

I would be very interested in the results, since your continuous promotion of the bard (blade kit) tempts me to try him out some time. Never been a fan of bards really, but your arguments are very convincing.

 

If you want it to be a 'fair' showdown both must encounter each other with no spells active and no traps on the field.
To make it 'very' fair you would have to give them the same GP value equipment and both would have to have the same XP.
I take it both are level 40 in this case? Sorcerer will have far more powerful spells, will have an incredibly powerful summon up his/her sleeve (planetar) and far more spells to cast.

Usually the first round will be spent with both casters trying to get off time-stop (if the bard has a timestop scroll). I can picture the sorcerer winning this because the bard is also a melee combatant and usually will not wear the Robe of Vecna whereas the sorcerer will. If the sorcerer gets timestop off first then he will cast improved alacrity (something the bard will never have access to) then with his decreased casting speed will probably summon planetar, place defences on himself and maybe even a flame arrow or something else that is fast to disrupt the bard who is in the middle of his spellcasting. Sorcerer might be able to cast time-stop and improved alacrity again and once that is done and he goes on the attack its all over.

 

If both sorcerer and bard are the same EXP, then the bard will be far more powerful. Early on, the bard will impale the sorcerer. Later on, it's going to be tight, but the sorcerer with the two cheesiest spells in the game (time stop and improved alacrity) will win, and probably quite easily.

 

I dont understand how you came to this conclusion. If the bard gets the huge advantage of prepping for battle with time trap give the sorc the same power. Time trap is your prep? Alright then, i choose chain contingency for sorc. How about we throw in immune ab-div and improved invis. GG no re. You wont find me during your time trap, and when you start casting its pretty much gg.

If there are no preperations and its a naked match, then its all about who casts first. Thats just clicking however. And has nothing to do with the power of the class. This is of course assuming that your bard is wearing amulet of power and robe of vecna.

A blade can beat most classes, but not high level mages or sorcs, and fighter/mages, its just not possible unless all the odds are stacked for him.

 

It would depend on the playing styles for the different characters. You can hypothesise all you like but its going to be opinionated, and it would be very difficult to test in reality.

 

Level 40 bard vs. Level 1 Peasant. The battle would go this way. The bard would disdainfully start to cast tensers and the peasant would throw a rock. Having a bad Thac0 the peasant misses badly but hits a passing bird. The bird falls from the sky and into the mouth of the bard (all bards have big mouths) thus choking the bard to death. That's how the opening round would go and unless the bard is immune to choking on birds the peasant wins.

I guess what I'm saying in seriousness is that we can tilt the battle in such a way that we get the desired result on paper.

Edit - shoot, Thyrona made my point much more succinctly while I was typing.

 

Hmmm... Since there's no way to test these hypotheses in real life, let's just be idealistic about what we post. Also, we assume that the classes are at their best. (ie, full levels and all the items in game, etc.)

I'd also like to say that should you want to the flame the Bard kit, you can do so all you like but just don't get too far with the insults.
How do you feel when someone who hasn't known a class all that much says that that class sucks?
Say I didn't know what Sorcerer was, and had been playing a Mage since time immemorial. If I said then that a Sorcerer sucked, how would you react?
I only ask that you be unbiased in your opinions, since I too am looking for the ways a Sorcerer can save himself from the Bard - which puts me in your side as well.

Anyways, back to the arguement.

That's why I made this thread actually.

I like thieves very much as well, but why do you dislike Bards? If it's not from a technical sense (ie, "Bards don't seem to be a very good class") then I ask you read on as I address some issues from the previous posts.

Yes, this is true.
But what does Jack-of-all-Trades really mean?
For the Bard, it means four things:

a) The Bard is the second best fighter there is, second only to the True-class Fighters themselves. (With the Blade second only to the Kensai)
Their superior levels allows them to Tenser's Transform into high-level fighters (potentially at a level higher than any other fighter in SoA), and they can buff themselves with mage spells. (Blur, Spell Immunities, Imroved Haste, Mislead, etc.)
A Bard in full regalia in SoA is nothing short of overpowered. Try it along, and you can be surprised that the Kensai-Mage does have a contemporary - the Blade.

Once they get to ToB, Bards are able to catch on to fighters since they can gain the ability Use Any Item. If you think this is impossible, get a list of every item in the game along with every potion and scroll.

This time, though, their Bardic origins begins to take a more direct hand at overpowering the fighting abilities of the class - see below for more details.

b) The Bard's spells are the most effective in the game - with the exception of the single-class thieves' spells(should it come across them to cast one). Spells get powerful with levels, and Bards are capped at level 23 at SoA and level 40 at ToB. In ToB, spell damage and duration is capped at level 20, but most other effects other than these continue to get better all the way up to level 40.
Also, in ToB the only classes that are near the casting potential of the Blade are the Mage class and the Sorcerer class. Multi-classes are not included in the list.

c) The Bard can use every offensive-thievery abilities short of Backstab, and in this respect is second only to singe-class thieves in their proficiency with them (No other class other than the single-class Thieves can have as many traps as the Bard, for example).
Bardic Pick Pockets (and Steal) is also more reliable than the Thief's, unless the thief decides to invest 10 points for Pick Pockets every level until level 20 or so.

d) Bards can use just about any item there is, except class-specific or person-specific items. (And can use any item in ToB)
He also benefits from item effects at superior levels. (level 23 effect in SoA, level 40 unless capped in ToB)

That's what Jack-of-all-Trades mean - the Bard is the second best at almost everything.

The only advantage the F/M/T has over the Bard are more spells (albeit less effective) and access to non-offensive thievery options.
Versatility, the Bard and the F/M/T's greatest strength, is reliant on three things: items/spells/levels which work in conjunction with each other. Item wise, the F/M/T wins but only in SoA. Spell-wise, the F/M/T has more spells but the Bard has better spells. (And fortunately, all the best melee-enhancing spells are at levels 6 and below). Level wise, the F/M/T loses bitterly.
Versatility is what allows the classes to be able to do many things - but the Bard's versatility is better than the F/M/T's because the Bard's versatility allows the class to EXCEL at something to the point of extremes.

The very reason why the F/M/T loses terribly to Bards.
The normal Bard's song increases luck and morale. (luck decreases enemy attack rolls and damage)
The Jester's song causes confusion to enemies every round at +6 save.
(And pierces magic resistances and most spell protections)
The Skald's song and the high-level Bard's Enhanced Bard Song benefits himself and his party members.
The songs may seem useless since they incapacitate the Bard, but why do the Bards themselves have to sing? Why not images?
Image-conjuring spells were the put in this game so the character itself doesn't have to do things in the first place.
Cast Mislead a few times and you have a band all-ready for some serious singing. Incidentally, all the song's effects are cumulative, and there's little to be said about having to make a save 6 times every round...

I was implying that the Sorcerer attacks the Bard in the Bard's domain. (I was being realistic in this - Sorcerers and Bards don't just bump themselves in the street and start the war of the Realms with each other)
This is possible, and the Bard can also use Invisibility+Spell Immunityivination on himself to lay out a whole bunch of Traps in an area, even when there's a Sorcerer around as long as the area's big enough.

The other scenarios are similar because Sorcerers can't Lay Traps, and if the Sorcerer casts buffs beforehand the Bard would see this coming and just wait out until these disappear - which would be unfair to the Sorcerer. The other scenarios also assume that the two classes had only Contingencies or Spell-Sequencers/Triggers and their items, and also apply when both are fighting in an area which the Bard isn't able to use Traps (New assumptions for the main post).

Why so? I've counted three Timestop Scrolls in the game.

Which will be useless if you can't target the character in the first place.

Tenser's Transformation was never meant for Mages, unless as a last resort - you can't cast spells for the duration of the spell. (But you can use innates - so more useful for the Bard and multi-classes)
Also, a properly equipped Bard doesn't have anything to fear from this.

Reread the whole new meaning of Jack-of-all-Trades and about the Bard's song above.

It seems you didn't read the post above. Do so please. The Bard is specialized - at excelling in everything. Specialized is not necessarily an antonym for Jack-of-All-Trades Bard-wise.
The Blade is second only to the pure Kensai in ToB - Jack-of-all-Trades, but also specialized.

Short of a very lucky spurt from the Wild Mage, no other class does. The Sorcerer is the epitome of raw magic power - which is why fighting him with magic isn't a ready option.

Nope, I was relying on it's ability as a +6 weapon - since there's no protection against this.

Having no proficiency is no bar to the Bard. Two hits, btw, equals four with improved haste. Read the answers I've made to previous quotes above for the ways a Bard can be second only to the Pure Kensai. (or better)
Futile attempts to hit the Sorcerer will pay off since the Bard has no intention on stopping the Sorcerer in time for just one round. I will take this moment to be sadistic and cast a Timestop scroll just before the Timestop Trap's effect ends. (Anways, whoever said I only had one trap laid? Suppose I laid more than one, which spares me the act of being cheesy.)
Remember, there's a very short gap in-between activation of Traps - just enough for a Bard to bring in a Remove Magic that will take effect just before the second trap activates.

I know. But this is BG2, not AD&D, and if we include D&D here there are too many things to count in with AD&D which can affect both character's abilities - to broad even for 20 DM's with a host of manuals.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for dooming the Sorcerer - the mention of the Staff of the Magi.
The Bard can use the Staff of the Magi, and by popping in and out of invisibility, your Sorcerer loses all hope of being able to cast an offensive spell on him. If your Sorcerer tries to cast area effect spells, the Bard's boots of speed will just take him away from the area.
So the Sorcerer has to rely on summons and melee-enhancing spells - which are futile.

Pretty much wraps it all up.

Invisibility+Spell Immunityivination = Timestop (and every offensive spell the Sorcerer has for that matter) is useless.

Which is why the other Scenarios exist.

Yes, spell description-wise. Even if it did, read my aswers to the posts above.

Nice move.
With this the Sorcerer can pretty much discern all of the Bard's tactivs - but doing this in the heatt of battle isn't a good idea. This leaves to doing this in a big area, (like the one mentioned previously) which will means there will be lots of traps around...

But won't matter much in the long run.

Yes, provided that
a) The Bard can be targetted
b) The Bard isn't immune to it

Nope, he can.

Unfortunately, that works both ways...

Let's just be idealistic about this please. It would be too much trouble unless there was someone behind each class.

Even if the Bard was the strongest class of all, it wouldn't matter if there were reasons other than technical ones for someone to hate the class.
If you want to try a Bard, first take Haer Dalis and maximize his potentials so you can have first-hand info for your decision.

Provided the Sorcerer has some spells which can be of some effect to throw away for the duration of the timestop.

Bards can also cast Chain Contingencies from Scrolls. He can also survive three Abi-Dalzims horrid wiltings with MR-raising items and potions, or simple spells.
If the Sorcerer tries to hide, then a wise Bard would do the same until the Sorcerer decides to show himself.
If the Sorcerer doesn't want to, it will only be a matter of waiting before the Bard can kill him. (Read answers to previous posts above for reasons why)

Well done!!!
If you mean naked without any items, then the Sorcerer CAN win over the Bard after all.
But when all items taken in... read the answers to posts above.

I think I just disproved that.

Aye, so we have to take things into consideration from a more ideal sense.

A similar event would ensue if the peasant threw the rock which felled the bird which fell on the Sorcerer and sprained his casting finger.

[ December 13, 2003, 09:08: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

@Scythesong Immortal: I see... You are very attached to your bard. Almost the same way as I am to my Sorcerer. We could debate this topic for hours (this is one of the reason why Baldur's Gate 2 is such a fine game) and will always find a new counterattack to trow at eachother. The very game is designed to be this way.
So I will try to be corect for the next statements: Ok, I saw your point. Maybe you managed to take the blade to the point "where no man has gone before". You are one of a kind and I thank you for this. But what's enough is enough. You can't say that the bard is a good spellcaster (how many spells does a bard have? How versatile can you become?), second after sorcerer. A cleric is much better in every respect, maybe an Avenger, too. And to say that the bard is the best fighter after fighters... I just can't stop laughing! Should I remember you the existance of other warrior-like classes such Paladins, Rangers, Barbarian... Oh, I just remembered the Monk. Is it necessary to even say something about the Monk?!? Even a Swashbuckler seems to me a better choice than a Bard. Yes, you can wield any weapon. but if the weapon doesn't have a special ability that has a constant effect (like the Staff of the Magi), than that weapon is useless in your hands. You can benefit from this in a good way only when wearing armour, helmets, amulets... This makes good sense, actually, and IMHO this is what this HLA is all about.
And I must corect myself. Time Stop actually takes 3 rounds to end. Sorry on that one.
But you also need corections. Protection from Magic Weapons does exactly this: it protects you from all the magic weapons (for 4 rounds). Maybe you were reffering to Absolute Imunity (Level 9), which protects you from +5 weapons and lower. So... about this clash... you can't do a thing with Carsomyr (except dispeling) while the time is frozen. 6 hits, with Improved Haste. I don't think you will manage to hit me twice. What's the damage with Carsomyr? 1d12 +6, if I am not mistaken. Hmm... 6-18 points of damage per hit. Not that much, you know...
Wait! You're right!
And you don't even know!
Damn, you are a lame player (sorry for that).
You could stand a chance, let me tell you why. While time is frozen, every atempt to harm a enemy is a successfull hit. Didn't know that, didn't you? Hmm... This is getting actually interesting... I'll have to give it a thought.

 

Christ almighty Hyperion your post is painful to read

Cant comment though because I have never played as a Bard before mostly as a Sorcerer and they rule!

Sorcerer > Bard imo ;x

 

Indeed. I think that the point is that we can choose to set up the battle in such a way that we get the desired result. I know you love bards - good for you. I think they're fun too. But, choosing to set up the battle in such a way so that the bard has already laid a bunch of traps is designed to achieve the result you want - a win for the bard. Likewise, choosing to start the battle with immunities set up beforehand like you talk about in the initial post is stacking the battle in the bards favor. Similarly, one could stack the battle in favor of the sorceror.

Either way, you can't really figure out a winner to these sorts of things on paper because invariably things tend to be stacked one way or another.

It seems to me that if you want to imagine a duel then you imagine two guys standing back to back, no protections of any kind, taking 10 paces and then let the fighting begin and take you anywhere you want throughout the city/wilderness. Or should the area be confined? See, even that may be a point of contention regarding what is fair. In either situation though, with magic users, I think it is probably a matter of who clicks the button the fastest.

I'd also say a duel like that or of any sort isn't a very good indicator of a classes overall strengths but your mileage may vary.

 

The most likely way a fair match between these two will end up as a hiding match. The immunites and improved invis. Since we have an unlimited item pool this battle will last till the ends of time because both characters will have an infinite amount of scrolls for every spell in the game, including those. Honestly there is no way I can convince you that the sorc will win. And you will never convince me that the blade will win unless the odds are stacked towards him. Anyway a blade seems more like the type to attack a bard in role playing terms, after all their adventerous theives, why wouldnt they try to loot a powerful wizard, who has golems, magical traps, and all kinds of guardians in HIS domain.

@Hyperion, your not thinking clearly, theres no way to compare the monk to a class thats only slightly less powerful than fighter/mage. Any warrior that can buff with mage spells is more powerful than any single class warrior. Its just that simple.

@Scythe- you havent proved anything. You said something about a bard using staff of magi to pop in and out. So can a sorcerer. And bunch of other random stuff you threw in which hasnt in fact changed my opinion at all, because you clearly give the advantage to the blade every time.

 

Hey Hey Hey, let's not start throwing slander at the monk here, he could undoubtably win against any other class. Why? Well, in 3rd edition it's obvious, but just in BG2 he still has an unsurpassable edge.

Let's say we will take the classes as characters as opposed to PC controlled sprites. Roleplaying, the monk is the most patient guy there is. Any spell-orientated half-fighter will loose simply becuse the monk *will* wait out the spell durartion, he also needs far less sleep, and has unparalelled saving throws. His fists also surpass spell protection.

So either they meet head to head, and the monk breaks out the whup-ass, or the silly spell-caster looses his spells (which are unbelieveably effecient in any other situation) and then the monk waits, and then slaughters. A monk is also immune to timestop IIRC (that may only be in 3rd edition), but in any case, even if he's not, he won't be stupid enough to let the spell-caster have an oppurtunity to see him, he'll just stealthily wait for an oppurtunity to present itself.

Of course, this is all roleplaying- if you just go mindlessly flailing away then like laches has said, it's a click-fest.

 

It's nice to know we can come to terms.
Anways, about the Bard being the best fighters in ToB, Enhanced Bard Song x 5 offers the following bonuses: +20 AC, THAC0, and damage, +25 MR, and Immunity to Normal Weapons, Stun and Confusion.
More than enough for the average overpowered fighter.
As for the Improved Jester's Song, you must make a save VS spells six times every round or be confused, stunned, etc. - as long as you're not under the effects of Spell Immunity:Enchantment. (Yet to be confiremed. The Jester's song doesn't function like a spell, and may yet go through Spell Immunity)

The Blade is the best fighter second only to the Kensai simply because fighters are capped at 0 THAC0 at ToB and the Blade can reach this by casting Tenser's Transformation (after casting all his other buffs beforehand - not a problem since his spells are very powerful and last the longest short of sorcerers and mages).

He can cast Improved Haste to fix his attacks per round (to a potential 8-10 attacks per round given the right items - all the right items which trueclass fighters cannot normally use, by the way), and use Offensive Spin to do magnificent amounts of damage at a maximum of five attacks per round. Only a pure Kensai (or a Kensai dualled at high levels, as irrational as that may be) can hope to challenge that.
This the simple reason why the Blade is the Lord of all Bards.
In contrast to the average fighter though, the Blade can grant himself invincibility against anything. And when you introduced Enhanced Bard Song x5 here...
Of course, there's also the fact that Bard's can lay traps and the Sorcerer wouldn't want to face a Blade while frozen in time.

I guess I underestimated that particular spell.
Anyways the Bard can cast remove magic during the timestop, which will take effect just before the next timestop trap acitivates. (There's about a 1-2 second gap in-between multiple Trap activations.)
Or he can just wait out the Timestop so that the remove magic can take effect, and charge the Sorcerer once it stops. He will be in full buffs by then - with a simulacrum perhaps, and now the Sorcerer has potentially two Bards to contend with in a state wherein he is vulnerable to any physical attack.
But the sorcerer can also cast another Protection from Magic Weapons, unless the Bard stops him from doing so - something very probable with 20+ THAC0.

I do know. I've played a Sorcerer more than once, and sometimes when I feel sadistic I "torture" the enemies frozen in time with my two dual-wielded daggers, preferably Stilleto Demarchess and Pixie Prick. There's also the Shapechange spell...

There is NO WAY the Sorcerer can set a battle in his favor by himself, which a Bard can do by the way since laying is what any sane rogue does.

I actually took care of this. What happens in a confined area is what is being discussed above. In an open area, the Bard can lay traps and these traps will most wonderfully swing the tides into the Bard's favor unless the Sorcerer doesn't move - ie confining the space back again.

Unless magic is not effective.

A stalemate, already discussed.

That would be the Planar Sphere. There's no real difference, except that the Sorcerer has a pet golem there that can't be killed except by a stat-draining weapon... Which Bards will usually have in great supply.

EXCATLY my point. It just also happens that the very best buff spells are at level 6 and below (ie Bard-castable), and then combine this with the fact that Bards cast spells at level 20 or level 40 efficiency...

I proved that spells are ineffective in this battle.
The random stuff is what other options the Bards have - what his versatility can allow him to do in the case of such an event.
But guess what this means to the Sorcerer.
I gave the advantages of the Bard since just about everyone is already very well acquainted with the Sorcerer class.

The fact that a Bard can kill a Sorcerer will mean that he can take on any magical wonder in the game and live. It's that simple.

The Bard is the most overpowered class in solo,
but his greatest weakness is when you put him in a party. Being only second best at everything, the Bard loses all purpose in a party where there's a Fighter, a Mage and a Thief. Three bards in a party VS a party consisting a Mage, a Fighter and a Thief and the latter party would win just about everytime.
This is because while the Bard can kill them individually, even three Bards can't win against them together.
Similarly, a Bard in a party will only have two appraisable functions - as singers or "live bait".
The only exception to this are the Blade, whos is a contemporary of the fighter in his own right, and the Jester, whose offers an entirely different element to a party.