All the Classes VS the Bard

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Well warriors not been able to buff is not strictly true Rangers and Paladins get spells like Draw Upon Holy Might (Paladins, not Rangers) and Armour of Faith as well as a few others on top of Hardiness, Smite Critical strike and Resist magic, which most people seem to avoid most of these and not take advantage of which is a shame. So they can buff but not as well as a real spellcaster, Bards included.

 

Is there something i missed? I wast just chilling out in spell hold and my blade hit level 21, all of a sudden he got a level 7 spell slot. Technically this is supposed to be impossible? Have i missed something? Was there a patch that let this happen or did some bug on my system just make the blade insanely more powerful. Heh either way i have project image on my blade now, hee hee.

 

If you have the ease of use component "unurfed this that and the other" then the Blade gets to the stage of casting 7 level 1-6 spells about 3-4 level 7's and 2 8's if you want him to be even more overpowered then great idea otherwise stay clear.

 

Ahh must be a mod component. Well in the interest of not having simply a fighter mage with beefed levels I wont touch his higher level spells I guess.

 

I'm not happy about all these 'Bard' abilities.

All I can see is Bard using Item X, Bard using Item Y, Bard using Item Z. Bard can use items X, Y and Z because of UAI.

If I'm reading it right, this ability is useless without any items. So a Bard who has UAI, and no items is useless. So it's the items that make the Bard powerful not the Bard himself.

Bard vs Magic User with them both naked means Bard loses.

 

And exactly what does this have to do with anything? you may as well compare a Fighter with no items to a Monk in that case, hell, how about we put a normal thief and Kensai into a duel or even better a F/C vs a Sorcerer!!!

What I'm saying with this outburst is all classes even the monk can improve with certain Items, try a level 31 mage with robe of vecna and amulet of power against sorcerer without items of the same level and any mage with timestop and alacricity will win every time. And as for the monk he uses items to improve AC/saves/MR and certain weapons are good for him with greater whirlwind such as Scarlet ninja-to and Celestial fury.

This arguement is going nowhere Scythe and others have repeated most of what he's saying at least twice and we keep going back to square one, and to be frank I see no end to this anytime soon.

Edit: sorry about my outburst but it's looking like people keep coming here repeatedly and post things that have been said before and it appears that the said people are not reading the replys before adding there own $0.02 and after a while this gets very irritating.

I hate to sound like a pompous ******* but if anyone has anything to add make sure it has not been said already before you do so, it will even tell you to do this in the forum rules.

To save anyone from backtracking here's just a few quotes I found mentioning Blade and Sorcerer Items

So to Symm Congratulations on pointing out the blindingly obvious fact of that characters relying on items...

[ December 22, 2003, 17:17: Message edited by: casey ]

 

If I may just point out a few things, which in your over zealousness to reply you may have overlooked.

The Subject Title:-

Notice, it doesn't say 'All the Classes VS the Bard with munchkin items'.

Notice I said 'Bard vs Magic User', I didn't say Fighter vs Thief, or Monk vs Fighter or any other concoction, this is because that wouldn't have applied to the thread....i.e. All classes vs The Bard. Whereas Bard vs Magic User is a relevant statement.

I'm not overcomplicating things here, I'm giving a bottom-line summary (read it again):-

Naked Bard vs Naked Magic User = Bard Loses.

Infact while I'm on the subject of Naked Class vs Naked Class, lets run through them Bardwise:-

Naked Bard vs Naked Fighter* = Bard Loses at low level, wins at high level.
Naked Bard vs Naked Cleric = Bard loses at low level, would be a good battle at high level.
Naked Bard vs Naked Thief = Bard loses at low level, wins at high level.
Naked Bard vs Naked Mage/Sorc = Bard loses at low level, and loses at high level.

*Fighter types (Paladin, Ranger, Fighter). Obvious exclusions which would provide a good battle at high level are, Monk, Wizard Slayer, Berserker, etc)

[ December 23, 2003, 12:10: Message edited by: Symm ]

 

Doing those comparisons without items is setting up something against the bard and thus is not an objective view either. One of the strengths of the bards comes just from the fact that he can use any item (just like a thief).

wrong:
Bard = 17 HLA
F/M/T = 6(7?) + 5 + 8 = 19(20?)
plus the F/M/T has a larger pool to choose from

 

I think the F/M/T is just a weaker version of the F/M.

F/M/T advantages
Backstab
UAI (I'm curious why this ability is so important to a F/M/T)
Traps
Hide in shadows
pick/disarm locks

Disadvantages
slower leveling up
no Mage HLA's (for me at least)

F/M advantages
Better fighting and spell casting abilitys
quicker level ups
Mage HLA's

Disadvantages
no theif HLA's
No thief abilitys


So I think the F/M is better for soloing since later on he gets HLA's of the mage which is more important to me then traps or backstab which I rarely use, and besides this why do you have real thives in the first place? and the FMT takes too much xp to be of any real use in a party whuch i why I would take a Blade instead.

Right well where does it say Blade vs Sorcerer with incredibly overpowered items like the Robe of Vecna? it sounds as if your singling the Blade out to use vanilla weapons but if you did that and put him against the Sorcerer he looses any advantage he has unless you penalize the Sorcerer in some way. Also the fact is that the comparisions between the two are been made to take whatever advantage each class can get, not just each class with there own abilitys as the entire topic has been about.

Also if I replyed a bit harshly I'm sorry I was angry at something else and was venting it, I want to try and keep things friendly between everyone and myself.

 

I didn't have a problem with your reply casey apart from it was a little over zealous, no damage done.

I never said the Sorcerer was using the Robe of Vecna...both characters were naked. The only abilities they can draw upon are their spells, innate abilities, any singing abilities, and fists.

I say that the characters need to be without items because say the Sorcerer had a Cloak of Ultimate Abilities*, which gives him 100% MR, -30 AC, 10 Attacks per round, and can fire a beam that will kill any Bard class in the area instantly (regardless of Bard protections)...then of course the Sorcerer would win.

Say the Bard had a similar cloak, but his cloak killed Sorcerers classes instantly, then the Bard would win.

The only true way of testing Class x against Class y is to have them both without items.

* Cloak doesn't exist I know, it is designed to prove that you cannot include items in the analysis.

 

Symm I do understand your point of view but it still doesent change the fact that none of the classes except for matbe the monk would be anywhere close to thier full potential without items, and this is about who CAN be the best. It is true that the Sorcerer is better then a Blade both without items but with the items each class can be much stronger with the right items and they are in the game and legitimet. I think that it is still valid to include items since I see items as adding to the possibiltys and the versatility of BG which is one of the main redeeming qualitys that make it the most popular RPG statistically.

 

Not true since the only class that isn't really penalised by this is mage/sorc or monk, whose abilities are based on not using armor or weapons. Also a druid without items could do something by shapeshifting. But fighterclasses or rogueclasses need their items to be able to use their abilities (like they need a weapon to do anything (fist is NOT a weapon except for monk)). And you should give a class at least the possibility to wear armor if their class allows it. A fighter without equipment is no better of than the next peasant.

Off course if you start making up items then the comparison no longer holds but as long as the list of items is limited to those in the game I think you can use them in comparison between characters.

This is a comparison in a BG environment and so the items in it are relevant to a class' strengths and weaknesses. The environment is a natural limit to the abilities of the classes and is therefore correct to take into account since it limits everything going from equipment to which spells you can cast.


edit: damn, I made this to long and was hence to slow to post before Casey. Look to his post for a summary of mine.

 

I suppose you're right, but it just strikes me as being an Item vs Mage duel, rather than a Bard vs Mage duel.

Most comments which I've read to say a Mage is better point to the use of spells, which are nearly always countered by an item that the Bard uses.

The tactics mod where Irenicus grabs all the players items before battling sorts the Men out from the Bards.

Also lets not forgot how overpowered the items are in BG2 and especially so in TOB. Although saying that, I just love the power of those items, and it's something which keeps me playing the game.

 

I really do not expect you'll change your mind but then I was only trying to get my opinion across so I wasn't trying.

I notice that the topic is not about if the Blade can beat the Sorcerer with spells exclusivly, it is about who can win, period, it say's nothing about not giving item advantages or fairplay, if you were in a life or death situation at the tip of gun I know you would be more interested in living then been fair, so you would make the best use of everything that happens and everything you have at the time, o live. It is a similer case with the Blade vs the Sorcerer, but in this case it's the Sorcerer with the gun (his powerful spells) and the Blade having to rely on whatever he/she can find his/her own wits to survive, and there are no class in the game that can not be improved without items but there are classes that can be powerful without them, monk and Sorcerer been two but the Blade is not one of them.

Scythe:

Wouldn't the high level sorcerer have the wish spell? wouldn't that mean he has with enough castings of it have all the spells he will ever need? I know the bard can use wish from scrolls but there are only 3-5 of these that I know of, and when the ard eventually runs out of protection while the Sorcerer still has a full spell book and is immune to everything except sucide how would the Blade survive?

Don't get me wrong I think the Blade is as great as you think but realistically the blade is limited by his spells and one use/limited charge items but the Sorcerer can just protect himself and the with a high wis wish until he remomorizes everything (including his own wish spells belive it or not) so he can basically go on for eternity without ever resting.

I personally think that the Blade along with the F/M vs the sorcerer could easily go on for over an hour if not more and all three of these are all great classes, and it is rare that I do not take a part with a combination of at least three of the above classes, and I think we could call the Sorcerer vs the Bard a draw since it would likley go for so long that the players would probably quit before the end unless they had the patentce of a monk.

 

wrong:
Bard = 17 HLA
F/M/T = 6(7?) + 5 + 8 = 19(20?)
----->
From the other posts above, he has 22. IIRC he has 19. You say he has 17. If somebdy else can confirm this, please do.

plus the F/M/T has a larger pool to choose from
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Albeit he doesn't benefit from them as much. I've repeated this at least twice, so if you have to ask why reread the posts above.

The only true way of testing Class x against Class y is to have them both without items.
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While you're at it, you might as well disallow high-level spellcasting for mages and swords for warriors.
See the relation?
UAI is one the Bard's greatest strengths, just like how a Mage excels as spellcasting and warriors can wield powerful weapons.

I suppose you're right, but it just strikes me as being an Item vs Mage duel, rather than a Bard vs Mage duel.
----->
It is also an item VS Mage duel. The Mage doesn't have UAI, so his loss.

Most comments which I've read to say a Mage is better point to the use of spells, which are nearly always countered by an item that the Bard uses.
----->
Yes, items play a very important role for Bards. The whole concept of Jack-of-all-Trades depends 30% percent on it - the other is on high levels and spells.

Also lets not forgot how overpowered the items are in BG2 and especially so in TOB. Although saying that, I just love the power of those items, and it's something which keeps me playing the game.
----->
Which is why the Bard can become very powerful.

Let me also point out that one of the Bard's greatest weapon is his wit - and with his kind of Versatility he can benefit heavily from it.

Wouldn't the high level sorcerer have the wish spell? wouldn't that mean he has with enough castings of it have all the spells he will ever need? I know the bard can use wish from scrolls but there are only 3-5 of these that I know of, and when the ard eventually runs out of protection while the Sorcerer still has a full spell book and is immune to everything except sucide how would the Blade survive?
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Which is why the Blade will use every option he has to flush the Sorcerer/Mage out, and force him/her into melee. With the options he has he's got a very good chance of doing so, which is why a Bard can possibly kill a Mage/Sorcerer.
That a Bard can strip anything of its melee protections almost as much as an Inquisitor can is an added plus.

Don't get me wrong I think the Blade is as great as you think but realistically the blade is limited by his spells and one use/limited charge items but the Sorcerer can just protect himself and the with a high wis wish until he remomorizes everything (including his own wish spells belive it or not) so he can basically go on for eternity without ever resting.
------>
The Helm of Vhailor + a Wish Spell Scroll and the Bard can, too. Cheesy? Then why does the Mage's images have the Staff of the Magi and the Robe of Vecna?
The limit you spoke of is a summary of the class' weakness - Bards can only become so powerful for a marked amount of time, and only then for as much as 2 - 6 times.
A Warrior with the right weapons is powerful allthroughout, and a Mage with Wish also. A Bard can only manage.

Of course, should things become get to their worst, the Bard will be resting more but will have an easier time than the previous classes.

I personally think that the Blade along with the F/M vs the sorcerer could easily go on for over an hour if not more and all three of these are all great classes, and it is rare that I do not take a part with a combination of at least three of the above classes, and I think we could call the Sorcerer vs the Bard a draw since it would likley go for so long that the players would probably quit before the end unless they had the patentce of a monk.
------>
It is a draw until someone risks moving first. Nobody will, likely. There are too many counters for every strategy they can come up against.

Symm, I agree that at some point it can come to which class can manage the most given the harshest circumstances but for the Bard it's simply the other way round - as time passes he gets far more powerful in leaps and bounds, a large part of which is because how conditions also seem to promote improvement.

And he can improve all the way to positive infinity and like the other classes, which is why Bards are so powerful. While the Fighter-Mage, and Mage can break the limits of rest, a Bard can break the limits of THAC0, damage, MR and AC - not only for himself and but also for his allies.
The F/M/T has his place elsewhere.

[ December 25, 2003, 06:04: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

I do not see how this is valid unless wish can recharge items, that been the case since you think nobody would risk moving first then it would never end since neither class would ever be vulnerable. You might as well give them a cloak like.

Immunity to normal and magical weapons
immunity to all spell schools
Immunity to all elements
Immunity to Ctrl-y
imunity to Death magic. etc.

Ok this topics getting very big so here's a summary of what's covered.

The point you are making as I see it is the Bard is an inferior mage which is true but can fight, steal, R&R, and with the right items be among the gods practically in power, I see this as an advantage to the Bard but in a party it comes with the penalty of one character using all the uber items for himself.

My final verdict for this is that the Blade is a fighting and buffing class who is very limited in spells in comparision to the Sorcerer but has more powerful versions of whatever spells he casts then the Sorcerer, you can put a couple of high level Sorcerers against each other and the battle could potentially take days and days and the same with a Bard.
But it seems the Bard is primarily a Buff/fighter guy and is best sticking with that area no matter how versatile he can get, if you want magic then your better off using a mage or a Sorcerer because they specalize in magic and that is why they are so one dimensional, because if they could fight like a Bard then it would be very unbalancing.

The Blade wins over the Sorcerer versatility wise. power wise in general I'd say they are equals. Powerwise in fighting and buffing the Blade is best. Powerwise in pure magic versatility the Sorcerer is better. Last of all try playing a game with only a Blade and a Sorcerer and you'll go a long way very quickly.

 

Unless I'm mistaking the limit in BGII (without ToB) is lvl 23. At level 24 he has reached the 3,000,000 exp mark. So this is also the level at which he starts gaining HLAs. His highest level is 40. So he gains 1 HLA for each level past 23 up to level 40. Now you do the math.

I based this on the exp/level table in the instruction manual of ToB. So if there is any error in my post enlighten me so I know I can no longer trust it.

 

I was thinking of that as well so I put the query up. I was thinking that the patch that allowed the F/M/T more HLA's would've changed some aspect of the other classes too.
Of course, I may be wrong about everything.

@casey
I wouldn't have said it better myself.
No, Wish can't recharge items but it allows the Bard more winds should the intial one fail or not be enough.

 

Are you referring to an official patch or a mod. I have no mods installed and IIRC I can choose for F/M/T between three pools but it's true that the spell choices out of the mage pool are useless since you'll never be able to cast them and so in fact reducing you to a little bit more than two pools. But you can still choose the extra spell slots although that may not be worth not taking a fighter or thief HLA.

 

I was referring to the official patch too.
Yes, the spells aren't worth it since the Rings of Wizardry can do as much.