POLL: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter

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Fel and Seb, you are both incorrect in assuming that i am having trouble w/the enemies i mentioned. i have completed tactics and ascension, and the game offers little challenge to me. i am simply listing the most difficult encounters in the game, and stating that backstab is a non-issue in those encounters.

also, Fel, you are incorrect in assuming that i dislike getting involved. i run caster heavy parties that require plenty of micro. however, my micro management actually has a purpose in the fights that matter.

i am not trying to diminish the use of backstab in the game. if you like to do so, that is your preference. however, and i repeat, i have not read anything that has led me to believe that backstab is more powerful than a high level fighter w/impove haste + critical strike, or one that is spamming GWW attacks.

finally, if we bring mods into the equation, this is a dead issue. w/Ascension installed, there can be no argument that a s/f is more powerful than a k/t. would you rather have a f/t on a s/f vs imp abazigal and the five?

 

if you are really patient...

Assassin (until you have x7 backstab AND UAI)

then dual to Fighter

Staff and 2hd. Swords 2hd Weapon Style

Carsomyr and Staff of RAM+6 (talk about insta kill)

 

Possibly, but not everybody uses Ascension. That could be the problem right there, if we're coming at the problem from different angles.

That's because it's not more powerful; but it's not less powerful either. It's effect is much more variable depending on the tactics used than simply whacking away with GWW. If you're really good, you can backstab with impunity.

Oh, and have you ever considered that the ones you mentioned might be the toughest encounters in Ascension simply because you can't backstab them, leaving a vital and powerful option worthless?

EDIT:
By "backstab with impunity", I mean being able to backstab and retreat without harm, with the possibility of repeating.

[ December 30, 2005, 18:21: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

If something can't be backstabbed it means you can't backstab it even if "you're really good".

The way I see it the K/T can take advantage of UAI and subtler tacks (agreed you can't just point and click) but the S/F is much more efficient with the really big bosses.

 

I'd also have to go with the K/T. However, I do have one question - why a swashbuckler/fighter? The main advantage of a swashbuckler is he is more of a frontliner than other thief kits. However, all of a swashbuckler's fighting abilities are going to be extraneous once he becomes a fighter - you'll be able to get grand mastery in weapons, multiple attacks per round, better THAC0, etc. Other than a couple extra points of AC, what are you getting from the Swashbuckler? It would seem like one of the other thief kits or just a vanilla thief would give you a more versatile character in the end. You can do everything you said AND backstab.

 

Doesn't the SB get extra bonus to attack and damage? That could be a reason why to take the SB kit if you are going for pure damage especially when combined with GWW.

 

The Swashbuckler will grant some bonus to hit (not that you any) and damage (this is really nice the S/F can be a real powerhouse and a much better fighter than a T/F) and make a better fighter. It's not about a few extra AC points. The bonuses are almost comparable to a Kensai's.
Plus the thief abilities can be handy (for soloing purposes or dungeon crawling) at level 16 the traps are upgraded (agreed they can't compare to HLAs) and you can max the Detect invisibility % (a very nice perk which is overlooked most of the time).

K/T and S/F are very different but they do have a lot in common. It's like two different philosophies.

[EDIT: didn't see Abdel's post before posting ]

 

backstab is not a vital option, as the things you can do with a f/m and a c/m in those battles make the power of a k/t laughable.

powerful, sure. but wouldn't the bosses i mentioned see through invis anyway?

 

EVERY option is vital. Predictability is what gets most baddies killed quick; too bad the AIs can't exploit it as well as a thinking human can, no matter how well they're programmed.

Though I will agree with you that the game is more biased toward strong arcane powers, I don't see what place that argument has here. It seems like all you want to do is bad-mouth the K->T, and if that's the case, then I'm done debating with you.

 

from dictionary.com;
vital: Necessary to the continuation of life; life-sustaining

remember, you used the word "vital" in reference to the ascension battles. as such, can you tell me from the above definition how backstabbing is a vital option? no you can not, because i previously stated how backstab 1) can not be used in the fights i was addressing and 2) is not nearly as powerful as what the f/m and c/m can do, and as such is not "necessary for the continuation of life."

moving on, i brought up the benefits of arcane power to discredit your contention that backstabbing is a vital option. as i stated above, how can backstabbing be vital or "necessary for the continuation" of my parties life when arcane spells are what are truly vital in the encounters?

finally, show me where i "badmouthed" the k/t. i have said that backstab is a neat trick, and even brought up the fact that traps and UAI can be very powerful.

i fully understand that the k/t is a powerful character under certain conditions. my argument is centered around the fact that the s/f is powerful in all circumstances, whereas the k/t is not.

 

Congratulations on nit-picking, but my point still stands. Having different options at your disposal is "necessary to life", and you well know that I wasn't saying it was a vital option against the non-backstabbable foes. I'm also assuming that you, as a fellow english speaker (only one of us could be so lax with the language) know full well that calling something a neat trick is diminutive, downplaying its usefulness.

And incidentally, the argument you use of mages and such is not only out-of-place but backward, as a K->T can cast spells from scrolls provided he has sufficient intelligence (and UAI).

 

"Oh, and have you ever considered that the ones you mentioned might be the toughest encounters in Ascension simply because you can't backstab them, leaving a vital and powerful option worthless?"

the word vital does not belong in that sentence, as i have already pointed out. then again i am not here to teach you how to write.

is downplaying the usefuleness of backstab a reason for you to stop debating me? why? backstab is not useful in certain fights and as such, i see it as merely a neat trick.

thank you for bringing up the fact that k/t's get UAI. i brought that fact up as a boon to the class back on page two of the thread, but i am glad you agree with me that it is a powerful ability indeed. however, let's not try to compare the power of casting a few scrolls w/that of a mage with a full spellbook.

as far the mention of arcane power being out of place, well i am not here to teach you reading comprehension. rest assured that the point was successfully defended in my previous post.

 

Well excuse me if I can't compose sonnets, oh great english teacher. I shall try to my utmost not to use a single word improperly if you would show me the same courtesy and use the shift key every once in a while.

Indeed, let's not, and don't imply I did. I was only pointing out that they are able to cast spells when it is needed (say, against an enemy that can't be backstabbed). But it's still out-of-place to bring in other classes that are not part of the discussion. This is between the K->T and the S->F, not the F/M or the C/M.

 

I agree to use the shift key and will not bring arcane spells into the discussion if you refrain from introducing other games into the thread. Had you not brought up Diablo, I would never have needed to bring up arcane casters.

That said, at this point I have nothing further to argue with you. I agree that the K/T is a powerful character, I just happen to prefer the S/F.

 

Deal. And though I've got nothing further to argue with you about, this has gotten me thinking about the numbers of it.

The first thing to consider is when to dual. In my BoM party, I've got a Kensai and a Swashie that I'm dualling at about the same time (between 1250K and 1320K), to get the most out of each class (lvl 13 for the Kensai and lvl 15 for the Swashbuckler). But I'm not sure this is a fair comparison because it would take the S->F more than twice as much XP to get their skills back as the K->T (2000K > 880K). Even with the 150K headstart they would get by dualling as soon as they hit 15, it's still not quite fair.

But 10 is also too low for comparison, as they'd be fully functioning (at 10/11) after 910K, while the K->T would not even have dualled yet; oddly enough, we end up with two to one total in the other direction this time. It would certainly be a huge bonus to the S->F if you don't mind only getting two kit-level bonuses instead of three. OTOH, the K->T's relatively quick bounceback due to the low XP requirements of thieves counter-balances that.

And that's where it sticks. Sure, I might be able to get a comparison there if I dropped the Kensai dual level to 9, but that would rob him of one of the best parts of warrior-hood, the extra half-attack.

Of course, there's always the above-and-beyond option, kicking the thief level of the K->T up high enough to meet the S->F XP requirement (about 18 or 19, I think), but I'm too tired to do the comparison at the moment. Maybe tomorrow.

 

The issue I have with the swashbuckler/fighter is that you give up a very substantial ammount of hit points. Assuming max hit points per level and a level 10 dual (this is the point at which the disparity will be smallest) you have a different of 33 hit points + whatever the con bonus would have been had the character been a fighter to begin with. Your character gains a few hit points to hit and damage, a few AC points, and traps. The K/T will have more hit points, can use traps, and his AC will be nearly as good as the swashbuckler/fighter. He will also be able to cas improved haste off scrolls. (Or use the ring of Gaxx 3 times.) That means a dual wielding K/T will be able to run around with 7 attacks per round. He gets 9, if you put the scarlet ninjato, belm, or kundane in his offhand. (This is why my dual wielding warriors put their points into things like critical strike and smite. Improved haste rocks!) That's right on par with whirlwind, since you can sustain that while a swashbuckler fighter cannot. The K/T will also have better initiative and will hit harder than the swashbuckler. And he can backstab, use assassinate, and will get even nastier if you are using rogue rebalancing or refinements....

 

A very good point about HP!

"his AC will be nearly as good as the swashbuckler/fighter"
-It won't if the K/T is not wearing a heavy armour.

"That means a dual wielding K/T will be able to run around with 7 attacks per round. He gets 9, if you put the scarlet ninjato, belm, or kundane in his offhand."
-first Belm, Kundane and the Scarlet Ninjato are only +2 weapons IIRC, not that effective IMHO;
dual wielding can be useful to get bonuses (Crom Faeyr for instance) but a one handed weapon allows extra AC bonuses (or shield) and the possibility of scoring a critical with 19 and 20. A two handed weapon gives the same bonus to critical hits. For 10 attacks regardless.

"That's right on par with whirlwind, since you can sustain that while a swashbuckler fighter cannot."
-the mage can always cast this very spell on the F/T (after all the K/T needed Barkskin badly before getting UAI).

"The K/T will also have better initiative and will hit harder than the swashbuckler."
-Doubtful. The S/F gets bonuses to Hit and Damage as well. Plus specialization in two handed or single weapons will make up for the rest.

You forgot to mention the Kai ability which should not be overlooked. This is terrific (not Sarevok's Deathbringer Assault but still).
All in all I'm covinced that the K/T has more potential. The S/F is less of a liability in the early part of the game though (no AC problems especially if soloing).

 

I agree with what Sorun said about backstabbing especially if you have a game with Tactics,Ascension etc.

But I can't agree with this:

A Kensai-Thief's strong advantage is not the ability to backstab
but the UAI ability.Just his ability to use scrolls like stoneskin,
mirror image,prot.f.magical weapons (and there are plenty of them in the
game) makes the hardest battles much easier for a dual-wielding,improved
hasted kensai-thief.

If you dual-class the swashbuckler after he gets UAI it's another story.
But I don't consider it very logical.
Anyway if I had a swashbuckler I would never dualclass him into a fighter
as already said in this topic.

 

What always amazes me about statements like this:

Is that its an argument based on an ability you will have for what? 5% of the game? Its a long way to HLAs...

 

@ Truper

Well actually when I said this I had in mind soloing BG2 (with mods) and in this case a kensai-thief can get UAI in chapter 2.

But even if you get it late in the game, you can't let HLAs out when comparing the two classes.