Specialist Mage advantages over vanilla mage ?

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Hi, I generally wanted to know what advantages a specialist mage has over a vanilla mage,i.e, OTHER THAN the extra spell per level at character creation, and that isnt really an advantage coz you can always learn new spells with scrolls if you're a wizard...thats why you pick a wizard instead of a sorcerer in the first place...that and dualling ability anyway...

So, why would I pick a specialist over a straight mage if I were playing a single classed mage?

Also, I DONT want to play a Conjurer...but everyone goes on about how powerful it is. So, could someone also tell me which spell school is the best AFTER Conjuration? Also, any recommendations for a solo, single classed mage...coz i have a feeling that would be pretty difficult...

 

You got a thing wrong here... spec mages don't get an extra spell in their spellbook at creation, what they get is that they can cast one extra spell per level, for which they lose one (or more?) spell schools, so if your vanilla mage can cast 5 lvl 1 spells, a specialist would cast 6. There's some guide to what spells you lose with a certain specialty somewhere on this site too.

 

Normally I'd reply in your SoA thread on the same topic. But I think one of them is going to be closed or deleted, and since the SoA topic doesn't have any replies yet, I'm betting that's the one to go. So I'll post here instead.

The specialist mage guide is here (fourth one down). The only really useful spell a conjurer loses is Identify, but the Glasses of ID can take care of that (although your lore should eventually be high enough that you can identify most items by yourself anyway).

I'm not sure about soloing with a mage; I think most people use a sorcerer. But never having tried either one, I'm not really the right person to comment on that.

 

Honestly, I always found invokers to be better than conjurers. You'll lose the 'Charm' spells, which against tough enemies are pretty much useless, and you still get true seeing, identify, etc.

 

personally the best type of mage IMHO is a sorceror

 

Yes, I agree that sorcerers are better than both regular and specialist mages, but that is not the topic here.

Conjurer looks like the best choice, especially if you can get True Sight some other way.

Diviners are the second best choice, losing conjuration/summoning. Most notable "lost" spells are Find Familiar, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow and the Power Word spells. If you have no way of casting True Sight then Diviner might be the best choice.

Edited: What I write about Invokers here is wrong, as Rastor points out below!
Invoker is a loser school since they lose the same spells as Diviners and on top of that they also lose the Enchantment/Charm school. I can't imagine why someone would choose Invoker unless by mistake or for roleplaying reasons.

[ October 29, 2003, 09:04: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

They do not. I've played invokers numerous times, they only lose Enchantment. You're thinking of 3ed.

 

Enchantments spells are actually very useful... I've played an enchanter through SoA and ToB and lo and behold, so far he's the only mage I know who dual wields two daggers and yet is able to hit his enemies 80% of the time.

On the topic, go for a vanilla mage only if you want to solo, since you'll need to be able to cast almost everything.

 

@Rastor

My bad! I took the info in Eze's specialist mage guide as correct without checking it out myself by starting up the game. I can't understand why he/she made such a horrible mistake when writing that summary/guide.

Indeed, Invoker is a good choice.
On the top of my head I would say that Enchantment spells are exclusively of the "save or else nothing happens" kind (with the exception of Greater Malison). Who wants to cast a spell which very well might do nothing? Well, if you enjoy reloading, you might like them.

@Scythesong
What does enchantment class spells have to do with choosing the Enchanter school? The enchantment spells do not get better just because you're an Enchanter.
How does it make your mage good at dual wielding? Your claim that he hits 80% of the time is interesting, but doesn't sound credible. Please tell us more!

[ October 29, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

Still Greater Malison is a good support spell everyone should get familiar with.
IMHO the best mage kit is the wild mage. Funny special abilities and all spells available.
Try every spell in the game and for your second mage move on to a sorcerer.

hello to the board

 

I would always choose a specialist mage over a non-specialist for four reasons:

• High stats rolls. Each specialist school has a high secondary stat requirement, be it constitution, dexterity, wisdom or charisma and the game engine gives you this automatically.
• The extra spell per level. This effectively gives you free casting levels. A specialist mage gets two 9th level spells at level 18. A non-specialist has to wait until level 20.
• Spells from your specialist school have a -1 save penalty. Coupled with Greater Malison, an Enchanter's Domination spell has a -7 save penalty so it could well succeed against anything. Even without Greater Malison, the Enchanter's Chaos spell has a -5 save penalty. Damage spells also do +1 HP per die damage which is good.
• "Dave the Necromancer" seems a lot cooler than "Dave the Mage".

The big disadvantage is loss of the opposition school. You need to check out which useful spells you lose access to:

• Abjurer: loses Alteration spells. Useful spells lost include Vocalize, Haste, Slow, Fireshield, Polymorph, Stoneskin(!), Wizard Eye, Lower Resistance, Disintegrate, Improved Haste, Shapechange, Timestop(!). Also, no offensive abjuration spells where a saving throw penalty would apply. One to avoid.
• Conjurer: loses Divination spells. Useful spells lost include Identify and True Sight. Nothing essential is lost, but also there are no offensive summoning spells where a save penalty would apply. Furthermore, many summoning spells are a bit rubbish (monster summoning and elemental summoning spring to mind). One to consider purely for the extra spell per level.
• Diviner: loses conjuration spells. Useful spells lost include various armour spells, Find Familiar, Glitterdust, Flame Arrow, Power Words, Summon Nishruu / Hakeashar, Wish spells, Symbols, Summon Fiend / Gate. Other summoning spells are a little bit rubbish but there are no offensive divination spells, so no save penalty. Probably one to avoid.
• Enchanter: loses evocation spells. Useful spells lost include Chromatic Orb, Magic Missile, Web(!), Fireballs and Lightning Bolts, Sequencers / Triggers, Contingencies, Mordenkainen's Sword. The loss of the sequencer and contingency spells is probably the most severe restriction. The loss of fireballs and suchlike is not so severe as many creatures are immune and the Enchanter still has access to other damaging spells. Also some of the enchantment spells are very powerful (Emotion, Chaos, Feeblemind) and in TOB an Enchanter can make some very powerful creatures do his bidding. One to consider, particularly from a roleplaying perspective.
• Illusionist: loses necromantic spells. Useful spells lost include Horror, Skull Trap, Animate Dead, Death Spell, Finger Of Death(!), Horrid Wilting(!), Wail of the Banshee. Skull Trap and Horrid Wilting are the only direct damage spells which affect most creatures in TOB. Probably one to avoid. It does go well in a multiclass, however, as the extra spells make up for the slower advancement.
• Invoker: loses enchantment AND conjuration. Unless your style is blasting everything to smithereens, this is a specialization to avoid. Also most creatures in TOB are immune to fire and / or lightning, not to mention having high magic resistances.
• Necromancer: loses illusion spells. Useful spells lost include Spook, Mirror Image(!), Invisibility 10' Radius, Mislead, Project Image, Simulacrum. However, the damaging necromantic spells are the ones which do the most damage to the most enemies and the Necromancer increases this damage. Also, Horror remains a good spell for scattering enemies. One to consider, particularly for an evil spellcaster.
• Transmuter: loses abjuration spells. While you may not cast the various magic and / or weapon protection spells (because you need to focus on destroying the enemy rather than protecting yourself, unlike enemy spellcasters who have the luxury of firing off a contingency as soon as they see you), the lost spells include things like Dispel and Remove Magic, Breach(!), Lower Resistance, Pierce Magic and related and Imprisonment. Also, the offensive transmutation spells (such as disintegrate and polymorph) only affect single creatures and have no inherent save penalties. Offensive enchantment and necromantic spells are much more powerful. Finger Of Death has much the same effect as Disintegrate (i.e. enemy dead), but Finger Of Death has a save penalty and doesn't destroy stuff. Overall, a specialization to avoid.

Considering everything, I would be inclined to play an Enchanter or Necromancer. I personally don't like most mage summoning spells and so would not be inclined to play a Conjurer.

 

Welcome Mad Crow!

I have to say I agree with him...Sorcerer is the best way to go. I'm greedy and I don't like going without certain spells. Sorcerer allows you to pick and stick with the best of the bunch, as I'm one who tends to cast the same 10 or so spells all the time.

Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow, Melf's Minute Meteors, Haste, Mirror Image, Shadow Door, True Sight, Greater Malison, Skull Trap, True Sight, Chain Lightning are my MVP spells. Nice with a Sorcerer, as you can cast them pretty much as needed, without cursing yourself when you've already cast your only memorized True Sight when you really need it.

ps - Chris Williams...nice analysis.

 

@ Mad Cow - welcome!

@ Chris - yup, very good analysis. One small error - if you check Rastor's comments a few posts up (and Earl Grey's reply), apparently Invokers only lose Enchantment (I'm taking his word for it). Otherwise, well done

 

I was going by the BG2 manual when I said that Invokers lose access to two schools, so thanks for the correction.

 

@ Chris Williams
Great work. I didn't know that specialist mages cast more powerful spells. Makes sense, though. The manual (and in game descriptions) are rather inadequate.

I'm definately considering an Enchanter for my next game.

 

I cannot find a reference to specialist mages casting more powerful spells in the BG2 manuals - the memory must come from somewhere else, maybe the 2nd edition rulebooks, which I no longer have. Confirmation / refutation of the specialist's spell bonuses would be welcome.

As for playing an Enchanter, most tough enemies have spell saves of either 4 or 6. Remember that Domination and Confusion have -2 applied to the save, while Chaos has -4, so that Chaos is likely to affect half a group of fire giants. An elite fire giant failing its save against Domination may do you more good than having it fail its save against Cone Of Cold.

Obviously, many creatures have high magic resistance, particularly in TOB, but this is something which affects all offensive magic.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have a serious problem with area effect spells and friendly fire. While I can usually let off a fireball without getting caught in the blast radius, I have never fired off a lightning bolt without hurting myself as much as the enemy. And as for Cone Of Cold, forget it.

 

@Scythesong
What does enchantment class spells have to do with choosing the Enchanter school? The enchantment spells do not get better just because you're an Enchanter.
-----> Being an Enchanter, I had to roleplay him as one then, no? So I abused enchantment spells.

How does it make your mage good at dual wielding? Your claim that he hits 80% of the time is interesting, but doesn't sound credible. Please tell us more!
------> Well, after a few enchantment spells my enemies would either be stunned, or asleep. I noticed that on this state, my mage could hit them even if he was dual wielding daggers! I still don't entirely understand how much stun or sleep can affect AC, but I do know that it's entirely fulfilling to just fire off enchantments than wade into battle and kill everyone with your dagger dual-wielding mage.
To kill enchantment-invulnerable enemies though, I usually turn to the dark arts of Necromancy...