BG2 - Last of legend

Remove all ads!

I guess I wanted to make that topic subject a little subtle.

In all honestly, I feel completely disappointed that nothing better than BG2 has come out in Seven (nearly 8) years. Seriously, if you value BG2 so much, you will never find anything else that has come out as riveting.

Since Black Isle went out, so did the Infinity Engine, the IEngine gave us some intelligent and enjoyable turn-based game play.

Do you remember waiting for NWN and being so utterly disappointed because you were such a BG fan?

I believe that the most enjoyable things in BG2 were characters, character interaction, story and addictiveness.

Seriously now, what game has developed on those values since BG2? I guess since 80% of the new RPGs are online anyway so we instantly loose that, but what about the single player RPGs? NWN2 is okay for those...but seriously...It's not as in-depth as BG2.

Do you guys think we will see a game as good as BG2 in the NEXT seven years? IMO, Probably not, the market has moved to graphics and on-the-spot enjoyment features.

 

Not just dissapointed, it was worse than that, it was more painfull and slower. First the character creation made you think it was an ok game, then some ridiculous looking mages with helmets came and Aribeth started over(voice)acting and you saw the conversation possibilities with her:
1)I'll do it, Paladin! And save all the good people!
2)If I get some money I might consider it.
3)Does it involve killing, because I chose an evil character and I have to "roleplay" him/her?
Only a bit after this the "Oh.. my.. god! This is horrible" smacked you in the face with a club +1 (+5 against IE fans).

BG had the most awesome story ever, BG2 gave new classes (and dragons) to continue it and ToB was, IMO, terrible. It's the only game series that I've replayed over.. well that I've replayed, I've finished BG over 30 times and it's still awesome.

And no, we won't ever be seeing anything like that again unless we get some new game makers, and the people pouring cash to their bank accounts, interested in something else than making money. Who needs heart if making better graphics pays your bills?

 

OMFG no! Mages with helmets! THIRD EDITION RULES!!!

I think you're both hoping not just for a game as good or better, but one where you feel just as comfortable as you do with BGII. You've been playing the BG series for years, lost your RP virginity to it and you know the ins and outs of every nook and cranny, you're used to the interface, you know all the menu shortcuts. You know every aspect of the story and you know how to resolve every quest the way you want.

I was exactly the same until I seriously got into NWN. After having chronic restarters syndrome for months and months, I made myself a build that I was happy with and all of the sudden the game flowed. 3e was no longer a scary unknown, and now I'm thoroughly hooked on 3e games, going back to 2e seems like the characters are shallow and boring. Fancy having no skills or feats, just stats and weapon proficiencies!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there have been a number of very good, high quality games since the BG series, but they just aren't BG, and that's what you're really holding out for. And for the record, the IE was awesome for its time, but it's now dated completely. Isometric games are gone. Forever. And they're not coming back. Look how badly ToEE sucked.

So come out of the stone gaming age and join us in the modern world of 3e and 3D games, and I'm sure you'll realise it's not as scary out here as you thought.

 

I meant that they look ridiculous I have nothing against the rules.

In my case that applies to Oblivion, NWN, NWN2. But still doesn't change anything.

I really like NWN2, with loads of interesting character creation options, sometimes it makes me want to go solo, but that's only because the party members have an idiotic AI. I liked Oblivion, now it makes me sleepy. Dark Messiah of M&M was playable and KotOR is... well it's Star Wars.
But *none* of them really make me want to replay them again tens of times with different choices and without the feeling like it's the same old again and again.

Well maybe there's Half Life 2, Splinter Cells and Legends of Zelda, but they aren't RPGs.

 

KotOR 1 is a great game, but more linear (meaning, less classes and types of playing)than Black ISle's RPGS. KotOR 2 was not nearly as great. It was barely even good.

 

Simplicity is a virtue. You don´t need a degree in rocket science to start up a character and go through the whole of the Bhaalspawn Saga. The rules in BGI and on into BGII+ToB were so simple to learn to control, even though they cover a wide range in magic, thieving and combat, and when you got the hang of playing the characters, the story started to get challenging.

IWD and IWDII... well, more linear, but still some of the same stuff. Even though IWDII use 3rd edition rules, the interface is still userfriendly, even though that may not be the right term. And still, maybe it is.

The reason I only played NWN through once is simply because it has pretty much none of those features that the Infinity Engine offered. Infinity games were simple and easy to learn how to control. NWN didn´t give me that feeling, it actually discouraged me pretty much from the start. And the story and dialog is horrible, and the graphics is IMO worse than the animations in BG. The whole camera-angle and perspective didn´t make it "prettier".

Games like BG and, say, Fallout had me going from the start. Good story, fun dialog and no arsed-up control-interface. Regarding NPC´s and dialog: If anyone firmly believes that the NPC´s have funny interactions in NVN, they ought to have a solid dose of reality beaten into their heads with a stick. Infinity Engine games have the replay-value that is evident in the fact that they´re still popular on the computergame market today. Hell, I got the new BG Saga 4-disc dvd-rom edition for Windows XP. And I´ll bet that it´ll be games remembered and played for a long time to come.

I certainly don´t mind the 3rd Edition Rules, I like playing IWDII, but they´re worth nothing, if the game that utilizes them is... well, crap.

Ask yourself which type of game you´d give a wanna-be CRPG-player to introduce him/her to the genre. BG-style or NVN-style? Which type of game would thrill them and which one would make them think "Jeezus, why did I quit Counter Strike?"

[ October 28, 2007, 21:40: Message edited by: Yulaw9460 ]

 

Actually, Oblivion got my cousin out of CS, NWN2 out of Oblivion and BG2 out of NWN2

 

Hmm...... your cousin made some mistakes in the beginning, but finally came around then? Is it like that?

 

I'd say it's just the natural progression of things

I don't want to turn my post into an NWN bash-fest (mainly because I hated the game. HotU included), so I'd rather think of more positive stuff. No, there hasn't been anything like BG2, but there have certainly been other very good (and a few excellent) games released since. Arcanum got out around the same time, and was a fantastic game. ToEE, while buggy (not so much after patching) and flawed, is tactical turn-based heaven. KotOR, while inferior to afore-mentioned games, is still pretty good (and certainly miles better than NWN).

 

No, no bashing of NVN. Just elevating BG and similar games above all other games. (Where is the irony-icon when you need it?) But again, most good games are 50% (or more) story. You lose the story, what have you got?
But again, maybe this doesn´t apply to all games. But you´ll need a goddamn GREAT element of gameplayaction to pull it off, if the story is squat. Sometimes it works. Some shoot-em up games have the greatest action and a bogus storyline, which can be cool enough, I guess.

 

I know its an entirely different class of game, but (the patched version of) Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines maybe. Its the only game that I've completed since BG and though 'wow i wanna play that again!' (with the exception of DX1, but that was for different reasons...and I think it might have come out before BGII). VtM is the only game that I think has had the same story-telling prowess of the IE games - the dialogue and atmosphere were right up there and everything felt like it had real world impacts. (It's only $10 off steam 'til November 4th - so if you've never played it )

 

That's a matter of opinion, but there are several reasons why there isn't a BG3 in the same style of BG2.

1. BIO got sick of making games like this and fell in love with advanced graphics technology.

2. BIO didn't want to be pigeonholed as a shop that only makes traditional RPGs like BG. They are now delusional, and they mistakenly think they can make awesome RPG hybrid games, which is why we have the massive turd Jade Empire on the market. I'm not optimistic about Mass Effect (which tries to incorporate squad-based shooter gameplay) either.

3. The only other shops that could make similar games are either closed down, or not capable of creating anything that BIO hasn't already created first (Obsidian with KOTOR2, then NWN2. Troika is dead, as it should be.)

4. Games like BG2 don't sell. Halo 3 sold a zillion copies. If Halo 3 sold a zillion copies, shouldn't you, as a game publisher, try to make a Halo 3-like game so that you can at least sell half a zillion copies? That's part of the logic at work there.

 

BGII, the last of the truly great and epic games.

Hell i find its graphics better than some of today's over the top stuff.

why should story and chracter be sacrificed for graphics? is this what people really want? some pointless linear go nowhere game, but as totally awesome blow your mind out graphics. coz i dont.

Ir rather play BG1 than WOW.

 

I honestly can't stand BG1 graphics, just because I don't like my camera to be close to the NPC's, same goes for NWN2, NWN1 had good camera control, but I far prefer the RTS style BG2 took on.

The fact of the matter is that NWN and NWN2 are not RPG's, they're action adventure. The difference is a total lack of non-linear play. Of course BG2 had it's beginning to end linear-ness, but it gave you so many options to take, avoid, and miss completely that it made a perfect RPG. D&D isn't about watching your character do stuff you don't want him to do until you get to combat... it's about interacting with the environment, having someone guide you along a path to "potential" greatness (the DM) and being able to immerse yourself in the world created for you.

In this sense, the only other game I know of that's been as good an RPG is Oblivion, which lacks multiplayer (kinda sucks), but actually follows through a little better as an RPG than BG2 since you can completely ignore the main story-line. Same goes for Morrowind. I do actually like BG2 graphics and gameplay better than the entire NWN series. It's more fluid and NEVER lags... I don't have to smash my middle mouse button to move the camera (and you all know you don't move your mouse to the side of the screen to move the camera in NWN2).

A better 3e could have been made, but wasn't. Companies only care about making money regardless of how mediocre their games turn out. It sucks, but it's reality. I hear these guys say, "I'm super duper excited about how this game is turning out! Better than the last one!" and as always, it turns out to have better graphics and even less story. Honestly.. HL2 had more story than the NWN series did and umm... It took far less time to make.

As for MMO's if you're into RPing with people across the internet in a game that already has an underlying storyline... good for you, but the only game I knew that had really good RPG style play was UO where to play the game... you didn't even need to kill stuff and level to progress. Good luck trying to get a game like that out now.

 

World of Warcraft's story and role-playing development are probably the best of any we have now. You do have to keep in mind the context in which the game exists, as well.

 

I appreciate everyone giving thier 2cents on my topic.

I played Oblivion and loved it, now that had some decent character development, but still not in the BG2 fashion of banter, conversation options etc.

I praise anyone that said NWN2 is an action adventure, but it is more like an action RPG.

Its true, if Halo3 sells a zillion copies and baldur's gate sells 3 million or something (I have no idea on the game sales) companies will move towards profit without a doubt, and why not?

But there are people out there with passion, as rare as it is, and I only hope we can see a game with as much depth and story.

Im just surprised no one has mentioned PS:T. That game has more story than the entire BG saga, but I personally enjoyed BG so much more.

Hmm, might as well whip out PS:T then!

PS: I'm really happy that people felt the same when NWN came out, I thought I was alone. I thought everyone set their mind in a "Wow this is 200% better than BG" zone. I guess classic gamers never die. Rock on

 

Well spoken Vita Morte Cardois. If you are interested in actuall roleplaying games though - I suggest you go for older games instead of new ones. I would suggest the Ultima series, especially number 7, and Betrayal at Krondor. Everything after the BG games seems to be action games with hints of rpg stuff in them. With the exception of morrowind and oblivion.

 

Honestly, there is so much potential nowadays for a truly grand epic RPG with a 3D world well implemented and so forth...
But as it was said before, it's all about big $$ and pleasing the masses.
It takes so much money to create a game, that you need to ensure a good return and profits, therefore you tend to evade niche markets like hardocre rpg, for the more accessible and mass audience markets of action / adventure style RPG.

I'm a HUGE BG2 style game fan, and I'm just discovering Morrowind. Honestly it's quite good, not as hardocre RPG as BG2 for the fighting, but really excellent in many other aspects.
I think it's one of the only "new age" RPG games that is somewhat RPGish, although even here we see a regression with Oblivion that tries to appeal to the masses more.

So now I ask the question: what would be the perfect computer RPG for you?
I think a mix of Morrowind and BG2 would be quite nice. The game would be 3D, you'd see your party from an angle which allows for easy controls. Cities would be huge and detailed, as the world, where you could freely roam. But the combat system would be turn / round based as in BG2 (that's the only weak point of Morrowind / Oblivion for me from a RPG standpoint the combat is too "action", I mean too much left click frenzy. )
Yup, a Morrowind/Oblivion - esque BG (with the latest D&D edtion rules of course) mix would be truly awesome

Edit to Vita: Old school does rock, I'm actually one of those who possessed Dungeon Master on the Atari ST, and adored Final Fantasy on the NES... OLD OLD OLD SCHOOL

[ October 29, 2007, 20:23: Message edited by: Edmond Dantes ]

 

D&D has also gone the same way as crpg`s really. Its getting more and more "dumbed down" for the masses, rather than actually being a good rpg product. Just look at what wizards of the coast did to the new star wars rpg system, and what they are doing to d&d 4th edition.

Old school games do rock. Bigtime. It probably has alot to do with the graphics not being very advanced. That bit of the games was easy to make. And multiplayer wasn`t an option. So basically they had to make good games with great playability and story. Most of them are free now, I think. Just download and play for hours and hours, on dosbox. I think there should be a seperate forum at this site, for older rpg games. Alot of them follow the d&d rules anyway. Us oldtimers could give the youngsters some good tips for games to play. if they are interested of course. Just an idea.

 

D&D is dumbing a lot of rules to make gameplay simpler, but at the same time they're constantly introducing more varied and complex information. D&D 3e has tons and tons more detail than 2e had. D&D started out without the distinction between class and race. If you were a dwarf, you were a fighter. Elf? Wizard. 4e will expand on that and also allow you an online forum by which to play table-top D&D with real-life people that you do or do not know.

Honestly if it turns out as good as I'm hoping it does, then I won't need cRPG's anymore . Actually wouldn't be a bad idea if NWN offered a platform like that instead of a strictly artificial creation and slow DM response tools.