Forget Kensai

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Alright, I must admit that I too was taken in by the legendary coolness of the kensai/mage. I've even heard them regularly called the best class in the game. But I recently asked the obvious question "why?" and I'll never go back. Berserker/mages are vastly superior and there's no question why. They can wear armor which means the robe of vecna is open for use. They can wear helmets which means Vailor's helm. They have enrage which means that most the buffs you would need to cast as a kensai/mage are redundant. There really is no way a kensai/mage can compare. So why do I never hear about this class?

 

IMO Kensais are way overrated, they have one thing going for them: better damage and bonus to hit. For most people they are the ultimate fighter kit because of that.

I believe they are a liability since they need to be buffed or they're bound to fall pretty quickly unless they don't act as tanks (and in that case I'd rather play a Stalker).

I like Berserkers and Wizard Slayers. Berserkers are the best if you solo the game (e.g. maze means "game over" for a soloer) and I really like to dual them into Druids (I always liked this particular DC but Mages are great too).

Wizard Slayers are awesome although the item restriction is a serious drawback, that's why it's such a good idea to dual them into Thieves and get UAI asap.

About the Kensai/Mage the problem is that if you dual at lower levels you don't get the most of the kit while suffering from its drawbacks and if you dual at a higher level you miss the late game bonuses that eventually make the kit interesting...

 

I like druids too. In fact, my ranger/cleric got nuked beyond resurrection in the battle with improved Irenicus so I think I'm just going to build myself a wizard slayer and dual to druid. Any thoughts on the combo?

Edit: Do you know the stat requirements for dualing to a druid by any chance?

 

IIRC You need 15 STR because you start as a Fighter. You have to be NN and you need high stats: 17 in WIS and 17 CHA.

A Wizard Slayer/Druid can be the ultimate mage disabler. Dual wielding scimitars of course (only melee attacks work to cause spellcasting failure and Belm is quite handy).

A Kensai/Druid is not so bad for those who like them since Barkskin and Ironskins can be really handy in order to negate the Kensai's limitations.

I prefer a Berserker/Druid because it can use magic items and since ranged weapons for Druids are not essential (no bows, no crossbows) the Berserker/Druid doesn't suffer much from that restriction.

EDIT: old thread

[ July 26, 2006, 19:09: Message edited by: Caradhras ]

 

Yeah, a berserker would be preferable but I've already got another dualled berserker and I have a greater appreciation for variety than for powergaming.

 

1) Kensai/mages can wear the robe of Vecna, they can wear any robe berserker/mages can.
2) Kensais cannot wear helmets, but they can use Ioun stones like the one which gives 10 extra HP.
If your fighter/mage wears the stone and someone else the helm or the other way around doesn't matter too much.
3.) The only rage bonusses that matter are the immunities, the other bonusses fade in comparison to the kensai bonusses and the kensai doesn't get tired.
4.)Kensais get a +2 bonus to AC, so the usual berserker won't be superior in AC unless you want to switch from robe to platemail permanently.
5.)While using throwing daggers or throwing axes the kensai is far superior.

 

-Magical helmets are much better than Ioun stones (Helm of Balduran gives +1 AC and 5 HP).

-A Kensai can't use Bracers to boost his/her AC... No need for a Plate Mail. So the +2 AC bonus can't compare to the Berserker's AC (besides there are many other Bracers like for instance Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise +1 to hit and +2 damage -a Kensai can't use them either so that's not "far superior" at all).

-Plus (if like me you find the Robe of Vecna to be horribly cheesy) there are the special armours allowing arcane spellcasting that a Thief/Mage or a Fighter/Mage can wear... and which of course a Kensai can't use.

The Kensai's 'superiority' lies in the Robe of Vecna (which in all logic a Kensai shouldn't be able to use) which is a) overpowered b) part of the "bonus items" and can be bought...

EDIT:

That's overpowered...

[ July 26, 2006, 20:13: Message edited by: Caradhras ]

 

@kmonster
"3.) The only rage bonusses that matter are the immunities, the other bonusses fade in comparison to the kensai bonusses and the kensai doesn't get tired."

Kensai bonuses are paltry at the levels when most people Dual to mage. It doesn't matter if the berserker gets tired because either the fight will be over in 10 rounds or the couple of rounds the berserker spends winded won't matter anyway. Also, the berserker has the ability to tank much more effectively by being able to use armor.

"4.)Kensais get a +2 bonus to AC, so the usual berserker won't be superior in AC unless you want to switch from robe to platemail permanently. "

Um...there are plenty of suits of armor that don't disable spell casting.

"5.)While using throwing daggers or throwing axes the kensai is far superior"

A standard high level kensai with plenty of GWW's might be able to make this claim but you're average 13 level kensai with a throwing axe isn't going to be able to take on a berserker dual-weilding.

EDIT: Also, Ken/mages can't use shields which means alot of bonuses and cool abilities are going to pass them by.

 

I think you guys may be overlooking some relevant details, such as the fact that mages have spells that are better than most armor. With stoneskin, mirror image, blur, ghost/spirit armor, fire shield(s), protection from normal weapons, protection from magic weapons, etc., armor is not an issue for Kensai/Mages (or berserker/Mages for that matter). And of course, even berserker/mages can't cast spells while wearing armor (they get to keep the shields and helmets, though).

Let's also not forget the mislead + invisibility combo, which makes the whole issue or "armor" spells irrelevant -- neither a berserker nor a kensai can hit what he/she can't see. And of course, spell immunity from abjuration and divination prevents these protections from failing.

Also, tactics are important, and can trump abilities. For instance, windedness is relevant to a berserker in a fight with a kensai if the kensai runs or hides until the rage ends.

In my experience, any mage can beat the pants off both a kensai and a berserker. So, the question of melee power is somewhat negligible when you are talking about Ken/M vs. Ber/M. All else being equal, the one who is going to win is probably the one who dualed sooner to mage.

 

@gatsbygoon:
3.) At level12 the kensai gets the double thac0/damage bonus the berserker gets for raging.
If you consider both the AC bonus for kensais and the AC penalty for rage there doesn't remain much extra tanking effiency.

4) you can't wear elvin chain and the robe of Vecna at the same time. Since the elvin chains are magical you can't wear a RoP+2 with them.

5.) Pointless comparison.
The dualwielding kensai will have no problem defeating the dualwielding berserker.
The kensai using throwing axes won't have a problem taking down the berserker using throwing axes.

EDIT: Dualwielding is more effective than using a shield.

 

@Bombur, I don't know if this is a glitch on one of our games or the other but my misleads can always be dispelled, the immunity to divination never seems to work. But more importantly, I'm thinking you don't play tactics because there are precious few challenging fights where the whole mislead+invis trick works. Even when they don't dispell me, most powerful enemies don't fall for invisibility. In a fight between the two, there's really no way to call it, it'd basically just be a game of chess between the two players. What's up for debate is which is more useful within the game. And as I said before, just based on the berserker's ability to use more items and have more immunities, he takes the prize as far as I can see.

EDIT: @kmonster, it sounds like you're talking about who would win in a fight, in which case this is a silly comparison. All a highlevel berserker/mage needs is a chain contingency with a maze spell attached. Assuming they both went hostile at the same time, a ken/mage wouldn't have time to throw a spell immunity, but a berserker COULD enrage. After the ken/mage is mazed its a pretty simple matter of waiting a couple of rounds (maybe summon a skeleton or two), casting time stop and continuing to cast it until the ken/mage reappears, then the berserker mage can simply start wacking away on the ken/mage until he's dead. The kensai would never move the entire fight and all because he wouldn't have that convenient instant immunity to maze.

[ July 26, 2006, 21:16: Message edited by: gatsbygoon ]

 

I always play with the tactics mod installed, and mislead works fine for most things. To protect against dispelling (e.g., dispel magic, remove magic) you need immunity to abjuration, not to divination. Immunity to divination only works against spells from the school of divination (e.g., oracle, true sight).

That was not the only topic discussed. Toe-to-toe was also "up for debate."

More is not always better. As I said, I'm not a kensai fan, but I also do not think they are an inherently weaker class. They have more weaknesses, but these are balanced by better strengths in THACO and damage.

 

This is fixed in the forthcoming version of 'Improved Anvil' mod. None of the mage robes will be usable by Kensai-Mages once you install Improved Anvil v.2.

 

I do not understand your logic of 'kensai/mages should not bei able to don robes'. Robes are not that bulky and heavy, even your wimpy mage can wear them, plus it fits the theme of a kensai, like a cool, spiritual warrior, wearing nothing but light robes, but stil raining destruction and sweet quick death!

@Gatsbygoon

So your R/C suffered massiv damage from Improved JonBon and was gone for good? Welcome to the club. Err, was it your main PC, or MP created member? If it is the former why don't you reload? Or were you playing hard-core: one death is enough game? Just curious.

 

"They are deadly and fast and trained to fight without encumbrance"

@Silverstar: I don't know how you picture Robes, but even if they are not heavy (compared to a chainmail) they impair your movements.
We're not talking about a kilt here, although it's comfortable a robe is not a garment that makes it easy for you to dodge (unless you're wearing pyjamas under the robe -which is likely- and get rid of it at the beginning of any fight).

Would you fight wearing a djellaba?

 

@Caradhras
Would any Robe really be an encumbrance to someone with the proportional strength of an Hill/Stone/Frost/Fire Giant or Titan?

 

@Psuedospawn, would any armor really be an encumbrance to someone with the strength of a giant? Besides, if we're going with pure logic then most of the rules in BG are idiotic. There's no ::real:: reason why a mage with high strength couldn't wield a sword, there's no real reason a druid should have to be true nuetral, and there's no real reason that a kensai can't use a shield. They are rules and having a kensai wear a robe is a clear break of them. If a dualed kensai can wear a robe then I want my dualed druid to be able to use all the weapons of a fighter.

@Silverstar, my R/C was a mp character and I know I could have reloaded, but considering how much I despise that fight it just wasn't worth the trouble. Besides, I wasn't that fond of him to begin with. I guage my character's effectiveness by how easily they can kill a dragon and he was by far the worst at it. Too few spells and not enough fighting ability to make up for it. I started him because of the idea of harm+critical strike but that was a let down too for what are now obvious reasons. I'd prefer a straight cleric frankly and definetly a powerful druid so I made myself a wizardslayer/druid for my ToB. He's so cool. : :

 

@Pseudospawn: IMO it's not a question of STR but rather of simple encumbrance to movement... a robe is a loose garment which can go down almost to your ankles. I don't think it would be very practical for someone to run while wearing one of them. Besides it's a sort of ceremonial vestment which means it may be rather cumbersome.

If you don't agree with me take a look at the picture of the robe itself (and other robes for that matter) they're quite long and are probably running down well below the knee without even mentioning the large sleeves.
A robe would definitely not be my first choice to equip a swordsman.

Think about a roman toga for instance, do you think it's even possible to run, jump or dodge while wearing one?

@gatsbygoon: the silly thing in 2E is that you still get the DEX AC bonus while wearing a full plate armour... that doesn't make sense at all.

It would feel a lot less cheesy if there was a quest to do in order to get such a powerful item as the Robe of Vecna (the casting speed reduction is insane).

 

Actually mage robes do not count as armors. The fact that they do not disrupt spellcasting at all is a testament to this. A Kensai is a warrior trained to fight without encumberance. A robe is barely an encumberance, especially the Robe of Vecna - which doesn't come with a cape, for one thing.
Adventurer Mage Robes are different from ceremonial robes. For all the intelligence wizards have, it would have been utterly foolish for them to have created a "practical" set of adventuring robes that can potentially hamper such simple acts as running away, etc. Would even a Mage enter combat in a djellaba?
In any case, the only reason why Kensai can't wear any armor at all is because it inhibits their speed and agility. Adventuring robes are usually loose in several places, allowing the Wizard full command of arm/hand movements and allowing him to flee should there be a need. Ergo, there's really no reason why a Kensai can't function as well when using Robes.
And as far as mastery or proficiency in fighting with robes go, the guy is a Kensai/Mage. The very name of the class gives an explanation. And honestly what's to stop a Kensai from adjusting the robe in several places so that it doesn't hamper his full ability to move? Mage Robes are only cloth! In fact, the only reason why the give any AC bonus at all is because they were enchanted to do so.

Yup. Unless you don't mind breaking the armor in several places, you'll have to limit some of your movements.

I don't know why either.

Druids strive to be one with Nature. And since Nature is True Neutral (anything from light rain to a tempest can happen whether we want it or not), Druids have to be True Neutral in BG2.

Imagine Ruruoni Kenshin with a shield.
Anyway, Kensais were trained to be one with their sword (err, or weapon) so...

A Kensai/Mage can use a robe because there's no reason why he can't. A Fighter/Druid can't use every fighter weapon because Druids are not allowed to use these weapons. If they try to do so, they lose some or all of their Druidic powers.
But if you ask why Mother Nature decided that herDruids were never to use Two-Handed Swords in BG2, I'd have to say I have no idea.

These are the enchanted full plate armours...

The reason why Kensai/Mages are more popular than Berserker/Mages is mainly because people want Kensais more than Berserkers.

As far as power goes, Kensai/Mages also have the upper hand against Berserker/Mages. While the Berserker's Rage skill is convenient in that it can be used immediately should there be a need, reaching high stat scores is really no problem for anyone in this game. A Kensai/Mage can also render himself immune to Maze, Imprisonment or similar spells by other means. Berserkers can use armors and helm,s but powerful mages have been changing the face of Faerun without those things for the past few millenia.
I won't pretend that the inability to use shields isn't a blow, though - there are a variety of very good shields in this game. But you usually don't use a shield with a staff, and when going for damage you usually dual-wield instead.
At this point the Kensai/Mage and Berserker/Mage are still pretty much equal - but what really differentiates the Kensai/Mage from the Berserker/Mage, however, is Kai. I'll trade Berserker Rage for Kai any day if I were I Fighter/Mage. The other bonuses don't matter much.

And so is the Berserker/Mage inferior to the Kensai/Mage. But before anyone starts going on about balance of somesort remember that Berserkers have the upper hand over Kensais when it comes to dual-classing to clerics or druids. A Kensai/Cleric is a ridiculous dual-class, and a Kensai/Druid is inferior to the Berserker/Druid.

As for the first post,

Kensai/Mages can use these as well, since robes do not fall under the category of armor. Looking at Gandalf from LotR and Dumbledore from Harry Potter, these clothes do little else but offer warmth - although for all we know they might turn anyone who tries to attack these wizards into frogs.
Armor is usually something that offers protection from some sort. In BG2, is refers to body gear which, even when unenchanted, grants bonuses to AC. Ordinary cloth grants no AC bonus, and cursed material may give negative bonuses.

Vhailor's helm is a must for anyone else *but* a Mage. And there are few really good helms in the game.

Unfortunately, Enrage doesn't last for 30 rounds or so - and you'll get winded after using that. The only advantage Rage really has is that its efects are instant, but if we already know what to expect...

Because the the general population prefers Kensais to Berserkers. It actually has little to do with the class power.

Yeah Kensai are overrated, but for good reason. But he still has disadvantages and weaknesses. Dualing into a Mage, however, is not one of these.

[ July 27, 2006, 22:17: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

I'm not convinced... Not that it really matters. Any lady here care to comment on combat abilities while wearing a gown or a full-length dress?

I really don't get your point: in BG2 the DEX AC bonus is added regardless of the type of armour, magical or non magical, leather or plate.
Could you explain what you mean please?