Who's the true tank?

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Prine, if we follow Lady Constance's rule we can't use Edwin. We'll have to start our own thread for that one.

 

Sword and Shield is just the name of the style. I still have him wielding an Axe. I have him wielding Frost Reaver and the Sentinel with two dots in the style as well as his customary 5 in axes. he does some serious tanking. Giving and Recieving. Thanks to having the lowest AC in my current party he's wearing the gauntlets of Dexterity. He's wearing Gorgon's plate and the Helm of Balduran as well. Currently has -11 AC. I'm half way through SoA. Had to take an early run through the Underdark after Imoen and now backtracking through a bunch of quests in chapter 6 instead.

which by the way the extra damage does go through iron skins as do other abilities. so I cannot imagine it stopping death bringer assault. I could be wrong though. That is something that would have to be tested.

 

Heh, I know. But we couldn't use Haer'Dalis either, or Jaheira's ironskins. If you allow instant cast defensive spells then you have to allow sequencers and contingencies. You can turn a pure magic-user into el supremo tank just by loading them up with mirror images and stoneskins and scripting them to keep both active at any given time, plus PFMW if they actually do take damage.

Sword and shield style isn't really worth putting points into. It doesn't increase your general AC, only missile weapon AC.

 

@ Starwalker

Deathbringer assault gets blocked by stoneskin.I have seen it in one of my games.It is considered pure physical damage thats why it doesn't pass through stoneskins-ironskins.

 

Missile Weapon AC is still something. And it does give a benefit when your using the smaller shields which don't give you any particular benefit against missile attacks anyway.

@theTruth

Thank you. I'd never tried.

 

Sentinel is a medium shield. But anyway, missile attacks in BG2 generally aren't very dangerous. I'd rather spend the proficiency points on another weapon specialisation.

 

Of the three originally mentioned, I'm definitely picking Sarevok. Deathbringer assault is something you do NOT want to mess around with...heck, it's the only reason why I'm giving him the 'Helm of CHarm' protection, in case some lousy succubus charms him while wielding the Ravager+6.....

I have to agree though...Jaheira's THE best tank in the game. I don't know about you guys though, but she seems to survive a LOT more battles than Korgan.

To prove my point, in that Yaga Shura battle, I was going toe to toe with Shura himself, Sarevok and the others were busy handling mages and archers. I carelessly left Jaheira alone (buffed of course...not THAT careless) and in horror, watched as three giants decide to gang bang her with sledgehammers.

For some reason, my half orc Barb PC (going 1 on 1 against Yaga Shura) seemed to be MORE in trouble than Jaheira (barely got a serious scratch).

I really wished I had that screenshot...the save's overwritten.

PS: Kinda OT....but I figured, that a F/C Half Orc with 16 dex, 19 str and cons WILL be the best tank after/next to Jaheira....but unlike our Harper lass, he can do more damage than her (FoA + Crom Faeyr + G. WHirlwind = FUN!)

 

Like I said before, Jaheira is the best defensive tank, but our question is, if I am not mistaken, who is the most offensively powerful tank, damage/kill wise?

Dual wielding Korgan is scary. But Sarevok will instantly kill most of the things when he scores a DBA. They are both big nasty boys you won'T want to mess uo with!

Then Anomen has HARM spell like Jaheira, but he has no Ironskins so he is %100 likely to be disrupted in melee when he tries to cast it. It has 1 round casting time IIRC. Korgan or Sarevok will SURELY hit him no matter how good his AC is. If you allow instant buffs, armor of faith can give Ano a good defense, and he is no weakling when HP is the concern. Then again a lucky DBA will instantly end the battle, and possibly it will be a really gory death=good bye to Ano forever.

 

I'm with Drew. Jaheira and Haer'Dalis (and Solaufein) are the best tanks.

(None of the three NPCs in the original post are tanks anyway. They're DDs. How is it possible to confuse the two?)

 

Just to remind folks; Lady Constance set up some very specific rules.

We have, as is normal in these threads, traveled a distance from the original post.

I am curious if any one has done a lab test such as Lady Constance has. Have you actually had whoever your favorite is go toe to toe with one of the others? I haven't.

what is the criteria for a tank? I haven't played with the Solaufein mod but why is Jaheira or Haer'Dalis a tank but not Minsc, Sarevok or Annomen? I really would like to know.

 

Spells. Non-casters depend on their AC to avoid physical damage and their HP to absorb it. Fighter-caster hybrids also have spells like stoneskins, mirror image and protection from magical weapons, which make them partially or entirely immune to physical attacks regardless of their AC/HP. This is particularly important for the tough enemies, who have THAC0 low enough so as to render AC worthless.

 

In response to this now highly viewed thread, I went back and did something else... I included many of those which were not included when I first performed this... and I made it entirely equal in all aspects. So this time around the rules are...

No spellcasting
No shields
No SK'ing of stats

Each fighter (and I am using those generally considered to be fighters of some sort even if they are dual class) are equipped with the following...

A plain ordinary plate mail without magic properties and a non magic weapon of their proficency.

When I did the Anomen, Minsc, Sarevok fights before, I had them similarily equipped, here they are all equipped the same...

Here are some of the results:
Anomen/Keldorn .... Anomen
Anomen/Minsc .... Minsc
Misnc/Sarevok .... draw, they knocked each other unconscious and would not kill each other
Misnc/Korgan..... Minsc
Minsc/Jaheria .....Jaheria

What did my conclusions find? They found that equipping the NPC's like I did, with non magical weapons and the same non magical armor, that the variant was like this...

With Anomen and Keldorn, both had natural unequipped AC's of 10, and three with their Armors on. So this makes them equal in every way, as they are also of the same race. How did Anomen win this? He won because he has an ever so slight better dexterity than Keldorn. Anomen's is 10, Keldorn's is 9, and if I believe correctly, Ano also had slightly more hit points.

The Minsc/Sarevok battle ended like it did, because there again you are looking at two NPC's who are equals. Both have an unarmored AC of 7, and again like Anomen and Keldorn of the same race, but they ended in a draw. Minsc is slightly stronger than Sarevok, but Sarevok has a higher dexterity.

Jaheria faced Minsc and won the battle for two reasons. Because of being a half elf, she had not only an unarmored AC of 6, but a dexterity bonus for being part elven.

Korgan fated the worst equipped as such, and no one really feared him unless they wanted to put their kneecaps at his mercy, as all the other NPC's defeated him. He was also the only player to turn hostile (red) by being attacked by other NPC's, the others stayed green, beat the crap out of each other and fell back in line. Like, Hey, I always wanted to do that!

One other thing I conducted...unarmed fighting. No armor nor weapons, fists only. No one dies that way. You just get knocked senseless. There it was much more of a who has the most hit points battle than it is who has higher AC, ad when I put Anomen/Minsc against each other, they were both KO'd.

One thing that I did realize by doing this, equipment is everything. Take away guantlets, belts, or weapons which modify strength or dexterity, and SK and you have some fairly well rounded out equal characters. The lowest AC I ever had any single NPC have was with Ano. He was equipped as following (at level 25) :

Ferra's Diamond ( from a mod)
Improved Cloak of Protection +2
Boots of Speed
Crom Faeyr
Shield of the Order +4
Golden girdle
Holy ring ( the one given to him by his god)
Ring of Gaxx
Helm of glory
which if I recall correctly = AC -18

The lowest I ever seen Jaheria's AC was -11 or -13, and I have never had Minsc's under -10.

 

Sarevok is stronger than Minsc (18/00 versus 18/93). Plus his mastery in two-handed sword should give him two more points of damage per hit.

Anomen is much stronger than Keldorn AND can obtain mastery in his weapons -- these two things lead for a big advantage for Anomen (although at higher levels the 'to hit' advantage of Keldorn should start to dominate). The difference in dexterity is not a factor (dex doesn't start helping until 15 and higher).

Unless you do several battles there is really not much you can infer. A single battle victory can simply be luck. By not allowing spells or individual special abilities you are actually handicapping the character (the true tanking ability lies in the entire package).

Strength bonuses:

Sarevok 18/00 +3 to hit, +6 damage (THAC0 -3)
Minsc 18/93 +2 to hit, +5 damage (THAC0 0)
Korgan 18/77 +2 to hit, +4 damage (THAC0 -2)
Anomen 18/52 +2 to hit, +3 damage (THAC0 4)
Keldorn 17 +1 to hit, +1 damage (THAC0 1)
Valygar 17 +1 to hit, +1 damage (THAC0 1)
Mazzy 15 no bonus (THAC0 0)
Jaheira 15 no bonus (THAC0 6)

Edit: Added THAC0. The THAC0 score assumes highest specialization with only strength bonuses and an NPC at 2,950,000 xp.

Weapon Specialization (unless you get the Grand Mastery fix):

* no bonuses
** +½ attack, +1 to hit, +2 damage
*** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +2 damage
**** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +3 damage
***** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +4 damage

Anomen, Saverok, Mazzy, and Korgan can obtain *****.
Keldorn, Jaheira, Minsc, and Valgar can only obtain **.
With the grand mastery patch, add one point to hit and damage for *** and above. Also ***** receives an additional ½ attack.

[ March 10, 2006, 17:27: Message edited by: T2Bruno ]

 

Oh, before I forget,

I believe the only true match for Korgan in battle done like this with such specific rules may possibly be Mazzy Fentan. I would have to try that fight, as I do remember her in the Copper Coronet in the pits with Gorf the Squisher, and she took out the Ogre singlehandedly.

 

I am impressed Lady Constance. As far as I am concerned you have proven that it is all in how the player handles the characters.

The developers created well balanced characters and left it up to the players to go about turning them into the beings that could defeat the dark evil that threaten Faerun.

I wonder if they knew that so many years later we'd be sitting around arguing about who is the best what.

 

Nakia,

That was what I was initially getting at. That the NPC's are only as good as you make them out or equip them to be.

I have played using every single NPC along the way in different games. People argue that the best NPC cleric is Viconia, if it is true, I have yet to see it, as unlike Anomen or Jaheria (who everyone well knows is a druid and not a cleric) , Viconia cannot wear plate mails, and even with some of the best of weapons she ends up dead way easier than Anomen or Jaheria.

Another good point someone brought up. Jaheria's use of Ironskin. Cernd has that ability also. Does it make him the ultimate warrior? Heck no, he is as wishy washy as ever, and has way fewer armor options than Jaheria.

If I had choice of only taking one ranger, it would be Minsc over Valygar any day of the week.

As far as thieves are concerned , while Yoshimo is quite the thief in the latter stages of SoA, he ends up dead. By the time you rescue Immy, her thieving skills are quite sufficent, and you can make Nalia a fairly decent thief using the gloves of pickpocketing/potions of master thievery, and making sure she knows the spell knock.

Mages? While Edwin is the "ultimate" of mages available, he does not always meld into some parties well. If you're playing a paladin, he's someone you definitely DON'T want around. Immy and Nalia both can usually cast 8th level spells by the end of SoA and sometimes 9th. It is beautiful to be able to maze Irenicus.

Now this is enitrely my own opinion...If I had to chose between Keldorn and Anomen, with Anomen being LG, I'd taken Anomen any day over Keldorn. At higher levels, Anomen can turn undead something fierce, the advantage/disadvantage? Anomen has all those wonderful priest spells, like restoration and ressurection. Disadvantage, if there really is one? He cannot weild Carsomyr, the Holy Avenger. I joke about the two. Is Keldorn secretly Ano's dad? Keldorn seems like he is just an older version of Anomen.

Then comes the other NPC's who have slightly different bakgrounds, Mazzy (who can become quite strong) and Aerie. Aerie is a cleric mage, who is not all that impressive if you ask me, and being avariel may give her bonuses as other elves, but her constitution seems extremly weak. Jan I have played with once. Haer Daelis is only ever incorporated into my party for comic relief (although his whirlwind attack is very good)

And the two true "fighters" of the game of the NPC's are Korgan and Sarevok, and my answer to that is take your brother. He is the overall better fighter.

Your NPC's are what you make them to be. Just if I were asked who had the best romance in the game, I would say Jaheria. I have played that through also as a male PC, although I had that funny MILF factor feeling going on, as she was supposed to be your guardian, followed by Anomen for female PC's, Aerie's is annoying IMO. Whining about her wings all the time.

The game creators put much effort and work into the game concept...

 

Anomen has better dex than Keldorn, a 10 vs 9, BUT these two scores are very same according to pure AD&D. Well, at least as long as we are talking about combat. A dex 10 character will be better in some non-weapon proficiencies than a dex 9 one, BUT they will be equals in combat, no AC, suprise, saving throw, or missile attack adjustments. So I guess Ano won as he had a little extra HP, plus IIRC Keldorn has 17 STR? 18/XX is MUCH better than 17.

 

After playing MMOs my opinion of the term 'tank' has changed. In my eyes a tank is somebody whose primary role is NOT damage, but taking damage for the party. This usually means they have a damage mitigation ability, a high armor class, a high amount of health and the ability to get the enemy's attention - it has NOTHING to do with their damage potential.

Given the 3 choices I would say Sarevok since spellcasting has been taken out of the equation - thus Anomen is the worst choice of all 3.

 

This isn't a class restriction, it's a STR restriction. Give her any STR booster and she can wear plate mail just fine.

I wouldn't call Imoen or Nalia thieves so much as mages with the ability to disarm traps and pick locks. Nalia is terrible even at that; what kind of a mage/thief has to waste memorisation slots on knock? Or quaff valuable potions just to disarm a trap? If they can't backstab worth a damn, they aren't thieves in my book. Jan is better than either of the two as thieving goes, but I usually use Yoshimo, just because he's a good thief and I like him.

He works as well as any other evil character in any party that doesn't contain Minsc. He also gets three bonus memorisation slots per spell level over any other NPC mage. As soon as he hits 18th level he has four level nine slots. Insane.

Come on, the two are nothing alike. Keldorn is far more knightly and agreeable in general than Anomen. Carsomyr aside, his dispel magic is superior to any castable version, but yes, I'd agree that Anomen has more raw power.

Cleric/mages as a class are absolutely devastating. But I find Aerie too unbearable to keep in a group for long.

 

Some quick corrections:

Nope. Only pure elves and halflings get a dexterity bonus, and even then they will have what you see on the record sheet.

Not quite. The only bonus you get for going from *** to **** is a -1 bonus to weapon speed, so it would really be like this (the table is on p.237 of the manual):

* no bonuses
** +½ attack, +1 to hit, +2 damage
*** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +2 damage
**** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +2 damage
***** +½ attack, +2 to hit, +3 damage