Bard vs. Mage/Thief...who da man?

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Please be seated. Let me start this off with a simple statement:

I think bards suck, and I want to be proven otherwise.

So many people rave about bards, and I just don't get them. I see them as more of a liabilty than anything. I'm sure it's more than just a matter of preference, but I think a mage thief is a better choice. I offer this objective analysis:

The Bard has thief abilities.
- No, the bard has 1 thief ability, and it's the most useless of the bunch since there are only 3 or 4 people in the game worth pickpocketing. No backstab, no traps, no nuthin.'

The Bard has a super-high lore.
- Is this really all that useful? Especially if you're like me, by now you know what all the items are by looking at them. Plus - there's shops, spells and scrolls to identify with. A regular thief, mage or multi with a high INT will have a high enough lore to identify most items, and use scrolls or pay for the rest. After all, you still get the benefits from the item whether it's identified or not, right?

The Bard can cast spells.
- Only up to level 6. A dual class or properly patched multi-class mage/thief can go all the way to 9.

The Bard can use any weapon and wear chainmail.
- One prof. per weapon, thief thac0 progression and not enough HP to make an effective melee fighter. He can use missile weapons, but so can a mage/thief. As far as Elven Chainmail/bracers/robes are concerned, a mage/thief can wear them as well.

The Bard can sing.
- Is the slight bonus to your entire party from the bard song all that helpful, especially at higher levels? I say no, even with the Skald's more powerful bard song. The jester's song is interesting, but you can do the same with the Harp of Pandemonium (I'm pretty sure). Even if it did help enough to count, is it worth effectively disabling a character to do it?

The Bard has specific bard-only items.
- True. But they are few and once a thief gets 'Use Any Item" that don't mattah nun.

So, I conclude that I see no real reason to have a bard, other than challenging yourself to do well despite his presence. A multi-class mage/thief will level up slower and lag slightly behind, but in the end will be much more powerful in 2 areas rather than mediocre to weak in 3 (melee/magic/thieving).

Remember, I WANT to be wrong here, so before any hard-core bard lovers chime in with "Death Rabbit you're such a chump Bards rule you know nothing I hope you get crabs! hah aha," tell me why I'm wrong. Is there some wonderful aspect to Bards I'm missing out on? I really want to know.

Hit me.

 

I'll take this opportunity to defend the Bards then... though I'll be referring to only one in particular - the Blade, and will rate him as if he were soloing the game. Btw, Death Rabbit don't get angry at me if I sound preachy or make statements that somehow point to you as a person... I'm only referring to your idea that Bards suck, and that's actually my only enemy here. Nothing personal... there was once a time when I had pretty much the same thoughts.
First off, I'll give rough comments on your analysis:

The Bard has thief abilities.
- No, the bard has 1 thief ability, and it's the most useless of the bunch since there are only 3 or 4 people in the game worth pickpocketing. No backstab, no traps, no nuthin.'

-----> No, he actually has three. Let me enumerate them for you: Pickpocketting, Stealing, and Traplaying.
If you think pickpocketting is useless, then you've never used it to its full potential. There are many ways to use this skill to get useful items, get lots of gold quick, or, if you like doing this stuff, exploit the many bugs of the game. Stealing is stealing... nothing like getting items usually worth 15,000 gold for free early. Traplaying needs no introduction, I think.
All the other abilities - Hiding, Detecting and Disarming traps and Disabling Locks, can be compensated for by a few simple magical spells that the Bard can cast with no problem.

The Bard has a super-high lore.
- Is this really all that useful? Especially if you're like me, by now you know what all the items are by looking at them. Plus - there's shops, spells and scrolls to identify with. A regular thief, mage or multi with a high INT will have a high enough lore to identify most items, and use scrolls or pay for the rest. After all, you still get the benefits from the item whether it's identified or not, right?
-----> You usually get powerful items while Dungeon Crawling... So unless you fancy leaving the dungeon or resting in hostile territory while having barely used your skills just to have something identified, the high lore's a real blessing - especially when you're on an extra long quest or a particularly immense dungeon. A regular mage, thief or multi can identify many items... but not anywhere near almost. No... weapons, armour and some other items cannot be used unless identified.

The Bard can cast spells.
- Only up to level 6. A dual class or properly patched multi-class mage/thief can go all the way to 9.
-----> Yes, but the multi-class' spells would not be as effective - and Bards CAN cast higher level spells, via scrolls. To avoid waste I can just summon a Simulacrum or image to cast the especially important level 9 spells.

The Bard can use any weapon and wear chainmail.
- One prof. per weapon, thief thac0 progression and not enough HP to make an effective melee fighter. He can use missile weapons, but so can a mage/thief. As far as Elven Chainmail/bracers/robes are concerned, a mage/thief can wear them as well.
------> A Blade can have three in Two-weapon fighting - that's a real plus. Swashbuckler/Mage characters may be nice with the two profs on weapons... But fail to counter the Blade's other ability - offensive spin. This grants a bonus to THAC0, damage (got your two profs covered then), hastes him and makes all his attacks do maximum damage for the round. Bye-bye Swash-Magey. Tenser's Transformation takes care of THAC0 and HP... and remember that Bards have a higher levels than mage/thieves... so this is a particularly deadly Tensor's Transformation. So your only problem to complete your ravaging Blade tank are protections, resistances and a weapons that add to attacks per round. All of these are covered by number of diverse spells, weapons, armour, potions, etc. in the game.

The Bard can sing.
- Is the slight bonus to your entire party from the bard song all that helpful, especially at higher levels? I say no, even with the Skald's more powerful bard song. The jester's song is interesting, but you can do the same with the Harp of Pandemonium (I'm pretty sure). Even if it did help enough to count, is it worth effectively disabling a character to do it?
-----> The Jester's song pierces magic resistance - that makes it different from the Hapr of Pandemonium. As long as your enemy can hear, the Jester's song can get to him. This is very nice, especially at the beginnings, when you can just go invisible and sing a party of hostile enemies twice your level to oblivion.
Yes, but only if you're in a more attack-oriented full party.

The Bard has specific bard-only items.
- True. But they are few and once a thief gets 'Use Any Item" that don't mattah nun. [Frown]
-----> Yes, but do thieves cast spells? Thieves, mutli-class thieves and bard are actually equal at this point - both of them can use anything. The same way you attack Bards with this, now I attack thieves:
The Thief has specific thief-only items.
- True. But they are few and once a Bard gets 'Use Any Item" that don't mattah nun too. [Frown]

So it comes to this. Multi-class thieves, equipped from head to foot with the best items in the game, is no match to a Blade with the same in melee. The multi-class thief will level up slowly, and in time will be far behind. Bards make up for their lack of magic on one area - levels, since most spells have their power based on the levels. The Bards' levels are supreme. This is especially noticeable in Shadows of Amn where a Blade's skull trap can do a good deal more damage than a mage's. So though the Bard may not be able to cast spells as conventionally as the mutli-class thief (though with the points I had discussed earlier they are actually pretty much at the same level at this point, with just a few scrolls, spells, items, etc.), their spells will always be better and far more powerful than the mutli-class thieves'.
Bards VS thieves in thieving? Thieves win of course. But Bards come a very close second. The only advantage of thieves - they can disarm and disable traps, open locks without spells, gain experience from using their thieving skills, they can hide without using spells and they can put down more traps (Bards don't have normal traps). All that add up to make thieves only a little better than Bards at thieving.

Okay... that's all for now. I'll make more defenses as the discussion goes... and pinpoint specifics along the way. =)

 

okay, I'll just be talking here from my own experience and won't go into details because Infarateo already covered everything I wanted to say. Anyway, there used to be a mod that me, my bro and a few of our friends made, it was called The Darkforest Tournament, the point of the mod was that there was an arena in which people could fight each other over the internet with their characters. So, in all the time I spent there multiclass characters (except for cleric/ranger) never got to the first 5, however Blade got a ranking of 2 three times and even won the tournament once, at the same time Jester got into the first 5 more than once (though Jester wasn't a very common class there).

What I'm saying here, is that you should try and fight with your thief/mage against a bard and I'm sure you'll have a hard time winning that fight. As for the gameplay Infarateo already covered it as I stated before.

[Edit]Oh and sorcerers rule supreme! [/Edit]

 

There's a tactic a bard can use which makes them very useful in a party - Mislead + Improved Bard Song... Mislead images can't do much, they can't attack and can't cast spells, but they can sing bard song... and the bard song stacks. So cast 4 or so Misleads and have them all sing Improved Bard Song. Your entire party will get massive bonuses to hit, damage and AC.

(Mislead is a very good spell by the way, besides using it for the above it makes you permanently invisible even if attacking or casting. It can be True Sighted though but Spell Immunityivination will fix that)

 

@ Infarateo Gantul

No offense taken - you've done EXACTLY what I wanted. I stated it that way so people would fiercely defend the bard, because I WANT to be convinced they are actually as cool as they are touted. Please you guys, keep 'em coming!

Is there anyone out there who's pro-mage/thief?

 

Infarateo Gantul, those are some good points. I could never play a Bard as PC, but even back in BG1 I had Garrick in my party. Yeah, bards were pretty lame back then, but he was fun to have along and he backed up my dual-classed Imoen at spellcasting. If I had a Sorcerer or Wild Mage already, I wouldn't mind taking a Bard along instead of a Thief/Mage for spellcasting and thieving backup. Also if you have an Assasin, let the Bard pickpockets and save your assasin's points for more other skills.

 

Now I must (because I'm wearing my 'anti-bard' hat) disagree with a few points, though they are good ones:

Quote - "All the other abilities - Hiding, Detecting and Disarming traps and Disabling Locks, can be compensated for by a few simple magical spells that the Bard can cast with no problem."

Do you really want to waste your very limited spell slots on "Find Traps" and "Knock?" I don't wanna have to sit down and rest every time I come across every 5th locked door/chest/trap to get my spells back. A mage thief can do all that effortlessly and still magic himself silly.

Quote - "No... weapons, armour and some other items cannot be used unless identified."

This only applies to items that cast spells. Your mage usually has enough lore for most wands, and there is always scrolls and the handy dandy Glasses of Identification. Everything else you can use just fine, plus effects.

Quote - "Yes, but the multi-class' spells would not be as effective - and Bards CAN cast higher level spells, via scrolls. To avoid waste I can just summon a Simulacrum or image to cast the especially important level 9 spells."

A mage/thief can just as easily cast high-level spells through scrolls and similacrum, so I don't see how this is an advanage, per se.

Your arguement for melee was pretty compelling, but you left out probably the tastiest of all thief morsels...backstabbing. Can defensive/offensive spin hold up to a mage/thief who casts Testor's, haste, mislead and picks off enemies at will?

All other points I concede, by the way. But I'm still not convinced. Gimme some mo'.

 

I'm confused. Are we referring to some topics on the Blade Mage/Thief, and Thief PvP or BG2-wise? For the meantime, I'll make references to both.

Do you really want to waste your very limited spell slots on "Find Traps" and "Knock?" I don't wanna have to sit down and rest every time I come across every 5th locked door/chest/trap to get my spells back. A mage thief can do all that effortlessly and still magic himself silly.
----->
PvP: This is useless PvP. Except hide of course... But Blades can just cast invisibility spells, or use a ring, a potion, or even the Staff of the Magi, etc.
BG2-wise: As we get more powerful these skills actually start losing their worth. That's why even solo fighters can still get a hold of the more powerful items of the game. Like Blades, they just Bash most locks and they're done. Anyhow, Knock is level 2, and there are actually very few level 2 spells worth the slot. Bards only need a few Knocks anyway.
Blades usually don't mind losing a few HP from most traps - they'd just regenerate them all back again. There are only very few really lethal traps in the game... and a few spells, and items can render them all ineffective.

This only applies to items that cast spells. Your mage usually has enough lore for most wands, and there is always scrolls and the handy dandy Glasses of Identification. Everything else you can use just fine, plus effects.
----->
So that makes the floor even for the Bards and Mage/Thieves. I was only defending the importance of High Lore. Anyhow, the Mage/Thieves and the Bards are the only two who really don't have problems on Identifying.
Anyhow, D&D-wise it's rather nice to be able to know everything about everything.


A mage/thief can just as easily cast high-level spells through scrolls and similacrum, so I don't see how this is an advanage, per se.
----->
I wasn't trying to make an advantage on this... I was just stressing the point that Bards can cast level 9 spells too.
The advantage I did mention was that the Bard's spells are by far more potent that the Mage/Thieves' - and I was putting this up against the Mage/Thieves' ability to cast spells more easily.
The is once arguement where things get a bit of a twist... The Bard's spell intensity versus the Mage/Thief's spell versatility.


Your arguement for melee was pretty compelling, but you left out probably the tastiest of all thief morsels...backstabbing. Can defensive/offensive spin hold up to a mage/thief who casts Testor's, haste, mislead and picks off enemies at will?
----->
BG2-wise: The most powerful enemies in the game can't be backstabbed, and can see through invisibility. So backstab fails here. Some enemies are also backstab-wise... they prefer to have their stoneskins ready always. Anyhow with the Blade you just spring on them head on, and take most of them out easily without waste of a spell or skill. The Mage/Thief has to use up a lot of spells to keep his backstab executable as much as possible, since this is the only practical way a Mage/Thief should attack with a weapon and do decent damage... and remember he can't use hide and spells once Tensor's is on, unless he uses rings and invisibility potions. Also, your protections and enhancer spells will last very much shorter than the Bard's - and you won't be able to cast them again due to Tensor's. So when someone decides to do a True-Seeing... Offensive spin lasts for another 15 seconds or so after Tensor's is activated just after it. That may seem rather short... but going at 5 attacks per round with 25 strength, damage-bonus items, copies singing(abuse as necessary, but I've never done so before except the one time Draconis got into my nerves. It was not a pretty sight), and each hit doing maximum damage + other damage types, the damage the Blade can do within just a short span of time can and will be far higher than any other fighter can do within a higher time range. Yes, it's a proven fact. Only the Kensai and their kin can ever hope to catch up to that record.
Remember the Blade has the ultimate versatility, and this game has a diversity that covers all aspects. "This combination of character versatility and game diversity resulted into a character that is able to excel in all fields to the point of great mastery - and since any other character must have some weakness in one of those fields he can exploit that weakness to the fullest against his opponent." -a critical analysis on Bards.-----> I got that from another Why Bards don't suck thread.

Assassination is nice... but you can't use it with Tensor's, and you risk losing a lot of its duration if you enable it before Tensor's. In normal mode, it's also not very effective against heavily armoured enemies.

PvP: There are many spells that can render backstabs inefficient and ineffective. One is stoneskin. Mage/Thieves and even Thieves can't hide while there's an enemy around so they risk using invisibility spells which are all vulnerable to True Seeing. The one spell that can save them from True Seeing - Spell Immunityivination, can be brought down easily by a dispell since the Bard's levels, as I mentioned earlier, is superior to theirs.

As I said earlier, The Bard's song is worth using and disabling characters for to increase its effectiveness... But if you've got fewer than three fighting NPC's in your party, the whole thing's not really worth it. Unless of course you have Druids and Clerics along to aid your Mages with very powerful fighting summons that can actually cause damage your enemies with their weapon types. This is also assuming you're not fighting a necromaniac or death spell/cloud spell specialist.

Btw,
Ryn, no pure mage, be it Sorcerer or Wild Mage, can ever hope to cross a Blade and win. I'd like to explain further, but only if someone asks since this is something quite specific and is a bit off-topic.

>>Edited for typos... added some info, cleared a few points.

[ April 12, 2003, 09:32: Message edited by: Infarateo Gantul ]

 

I'm not nearly the expert you folks seem to be, but here's my 2 cents -- in the case of Jan, the mage thief is a truly stunning piece of work. By the time he hits ToB, he can identify just about anything, and to boot, even before that if you jump him up with Potions of Genius, Insight, and/or Mind Focusing, there isn't much he can't identify. If he keeps the few Identify scrolls he finds during the game, then he's got all bases covered.

I like Skald's, myself, as their song helps a lot. Unlike Blades, they have full Bardic lore.

Now, some have mentioned that even Blades don't make great melee fighters. Well, by the end of the game their THAC0 should be better than that of a mage/thief with similar experience. But who uses either of these characters as melee fighters? I prefer to have my Skald stay back, sing, cast spells, and use longbows. His +1 to hit, IIRC, also applies to ranged weapons. That makes him slightly better than a similarly experienced Thief. Even though a thief can get Use any item, they can never use some items without a bit of a penalty, because they can't take proficiency in said weapons -- but a Bard can!

Now, there's a limited amount of gold in the game and the same goes for scrolls. So I wouldn't want to have ONLY a Bard as my spellcaster, because I like my 7+ level spells, but as a support he is magnificent. Referring specifically to Haer'Dalis, he is also a hoot -- his dialogues with Jan about poetry make the game!

 

Quote by: Infarateo Gantul
"Btw,
Ryn, no pure mage, be it Sorcerer or Wild Mage, can ever hope to cross a Blade and win. I'd like to explain further, but only if someone asks since this is something quite specific and is a bit off-topic.


I'd love to hear the theory behind this statement.

[removal of sig.]

[ April 23, 2003, 18:50: Message edited by: Immoral ]

 

Okay.
There are actually many ways a Blade can kill a full-level Sorcerer or Wild Mage, and in the case of the Wild Mage this can include simply watching the Wild Mage and waiting for an incident to happen - i.e. a spell backfiring and blowing the caster to oblivion and beyond.

But in this case, I'll just give you a three word answer that needs no arguement - Protection from Magic.

 

I was afraid that was going to be your answer.

That is the same thing that everybody says whenever they come against a spell user. That argument had been used and successfully refuted many times.

Protection from magic, as good as it is, is not everything many seem think it is. For one, It can be dispelled/removed. For two, you seem to forget about the amazing powers of, Time Stop, Shapechange, Gate, Etc.. Nothing says a Sorcerer/Mage has cast magic AT you. Fact of the matter is, once a Sorcerer/Mage gets high level spells, there is little that can be done against them.

I, personally, am not an avid fan of Sorcerers/Mages, but I have to respect their immense power. (I prefer the MC Ranger/Cleric - what a God!)

Not trying to turn this into a Sorcerer Vs. Blade debate, but I had to say my peace about this.

**** Back to topic of Bards

I played a Blade/Skald/Jester game last night, to try them out and I simply quit after about two hours. Their THAC0's are horrendous! They simply couldn't hit anything worth a d@mn. (Maybe I'm just spoiled )

Because of that, I'd have to stick with the old Fighter/Mage route. Though, since this is a Bard Vs. Mage/Thief topic, I'd definitely go Mage/Thief over Bard for a little backstabbin' love.

[removal of sig.]

[ April 23, 2003, 18:50: Message edited by: Immoral ]

 

You guys have sold me on the value of Bards . He's gonna add some fun to my next multiplayer party . . .

Regarding Blade PvP Sorcerer/Wild Mage, the outcome will depend heavily on tactics and the skill of each human controller. Initiative, item set, and spell choice are huge factors, too. How is the Blade going to begin, with spells or melee? What are the first spells the wizard will cast? How the Bard deal with Imprisonment, Time Stop, Gate, instant death spells, etc., and vice versa if the Bard uses scrolls? May the best player win, I say.

 

I refute everyone's arguments by saying the following statement:

Bards are fun. It's a challenge. They have things Mage/Thieves can't do. Who cares if they suck?

 

That would be exactly the point of this Thread, C'Jakob.

I wanted to know why they were so much fun, and I've learned so. I've never had a good experience with them, so I came to the conclusion I wasn't playing them properly. I wanted to learn how to do just that, and this thread has served that purpose. It's not to knock Bards at all.

I've seen tons of people say "Bards are fun. It's a challenge. They have things Mage/Thieves can't do." All I'm saying is "Ok...but why?"

If you don't want to participate, fine. But as you can see by the posts above, this thread is converting other Bard-nonbelievers just like me. You seem to like Bards, so I'd like to hear your input too.

 

I'm not one to believe in a bard winning against a mage / sorcerer either. If that's the case with BG2 (which I don't believe in), then there's something seriously wrong with the game. The ultimate power is in the hand of mages in D&D. Everyone knows this. And even in BG2, a sorcerer over level 20 can pour such an amount of devastation in an amount of time that would be to others no more than a few seconds, that there's no way a bard could withstand it without some serious bug/programming error exploits and overpowered items.

Bard's greatest use would be the immense amount of information of just about everything. The so-called street-wisdom and con-art abilities. The psychological effect one with an obviously ever-blabbering and positive attitude would have on a party (which is where the idea of a song that boosts up the abilities originally came from, I believe). Bard is excellent in a "real-life" party with real people with real needs. The endless energybattery to provide the other members the common essentials that they are unable to get on their own. That's what bard is all about, in my books at least.

Too bad in a game like BG2 (even though it is the best of its kind), the full abilities of any race, class or individual are put at a serious disadvantage as only a small part of them are "doable" (for the lack of a better word). Usually the fighting sort come first in line, almost totally outruling the real power which does not appear so visibly on the realistically rare occation of a battle.

But, I have to admit that the posts about a blade's efficiency got me convinced enough to play the game through with one in the near future.

 

When you deal with the Spectator in the Sanhuighan city, if you have Haer'dalis in the group it is he who tricks the Spectator (I think jan can too, maybe others can) but to my mind he should be the only one who can do it -- his particular brand of charisma thought the number ranking is lower than that of a pl=aladin, is the kind that would get you past the Spectator -- I can't see Keldorn thinking that way, or any Lawful Good Paladin for that matter.

In a real D&D game (as in PnP) where his entire repetoire of skills is allowed full play, a bard is a truly magnificent character. I guess the whole thing comes down to game style, though. Some people are just hack and slashers, and there's nothing wrong with that -- it's just not the Bard's forte.

 

It's a matter of wisdom and intelligence with the Spectator. Intelligence specifically. Charisma has nothing to do with it, afaik. Last time I was there, Edwin was the one to talk the Spectator out of it.

 

NPC's have no bearing on it, though they may have interesting things to say. I played through with my all-created party and my cleric with 18 WIS and 15 INT talked him down just fine.

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