Bard vs. Mage/Thief...who da man?

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The stats matter, not the class, level or wether it's an NPC or the protagonist. In your case, your protagonist had high enough stats to talk his way through the scene on his own. In case this was not the case, you would've had to rely on your NPC companions. In case no-one has the stats required... tough luck.

 

Exactly my point. The stats and skills of the NPC's were what was important in that situation, not the NPC's themselves.

Now...seriously...

 

Okay, let's put it this way.

#1
I've noticed that one of the reasons why people think Bards suck is because Bards start the game with very poor skills.
Right at the beginning, they are the worst characters to put in a fight. Their THAC0 is pathetic - they're useless in melee and not very good archers either. They're also horrendous wizards. They have few useful abilties, and most of their skills are forgotten or ignored.
Since first impressions to tend to last, the result is that Bards get branded as being the poorest characters in the game.
What people fail to recognize is that with each level up, the Bard makes up for this and even manages to become better at some skills that other characters.
They fail to see how a character so weak could get better than other characters, since the other characters are levelling up too. Well, Bards level up faster, reach higher levels, and learn more powerful skills than most characters - and its because of this that they win out in the end.
If this were real D&D, by the time the Bard reaches the start of his prime, your Sorcerer would still be nowhere near being an Archmage and your Kensai-Mage would still be a fledgling. Result, you get diced before you know what had happened.

This is gets pretty interesting with the fact that as Mages and Sorcerers do become Archmages and Kensai-Mages become the terror of all classes, the Blade manages to keep up with the pace - and fight for a title amongst the three.

#2
Most people seem to know only three methods of play - Mage, Fighter, and Thief. This cause a paradox with Bards since you can't use a Bard as a Mage, a Fighter, a Thief, or even as a Mage-Thief, a Fighter-Thief, or a Fighter-Mage.
You have to play a Bard as a Bard - which is roughly a combination of all three main methods plus a mix of true Bardic character - the ability to think creatively, act resourcefully, and recognize all prospective measures and combine them in some radical way.

That's also why you can't use a Bard as a Fighter-Mage-Thief. If all you'll do is that, what you'll get is a disappointment.

#3
Bards are rogues. The Thief is a rogue. Obviously, the Thief is the better Rogue so with that in mind, most people come to the straight conclusion that the Thief is better than the Bard, and Bards suck.
Well, Bards don't suck... and there's some proof in the previous posts on this.
But with the Thieves taking the reins, most people soon forget that the Bard is a Rogue too.
Well, Bards CAN steal. (Better than thieves in fact) They CAN lay traps. And pickpocket IS and a very useful skill in this game because
a) Pickpocket is the main skill checked upon attempting a steal and
b) Since the Bard's pickpockets skill gets higher similar to a Thief who's spending most of his skill points on pickpockets with every level, what you get is a pickpocket-god. Only when you've pickpocketted every person you've met in Amn with an unfailing pickpocket skill will you realize that the skill is a truly marvelous asset.

#4
Another reason why people think Bard's suck is that the Bard's versatility, which is among his sole greatest assets, is no much for a true devout class' intensity. Indeed, in almost every other game I have ever played intensity does win over versatility, and a truly dedicated Mage or Sorcerer can easily lay waste a Fighter-Mage in a fight, though the latter makes up for this with more interesting gameplay.
But then, this game is unique - this game is different from other games, and Baldur's Gate 2 has some wonderful items and features that can help make a lowly Mage good enough to be able to fight like a seasoned warrior. With this in mind, consider the Blade, who is bluntly a Fighter-Mage-Thief who is not suffering from the latter's greatest weakness - low levels. He's on the other way round in fact. And add to that a most potent skill - Use any item, and imagine the odds...

#5
Baldur's Gate may be based on D&D, but remember that's all there is to it. It is not real D&D, and so forget the notion of Bards as singing, arrogant minstrels who can't think of nothing but not getting their clothes all ruffled, or getting their hands "damaged".
It is with that notion that you are actually failing to see the potentials of the Bard. See to him as how a gamer sees a game - the Bard is a class, now think of the many possibilities you can cook up with it. THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WHY BARDS ARE LOOKED DOWN UPON.
Have you seen Bards in movies? In series? In cartoon shows?
Almost all of them speak of a Bard in the same way as how they are referred to previously.
Only when you see the Bard as a class, the Blade as a kit, will you learn to discover their true potential - though the fact that you've played BG2 so many times you know just about every nook and cranny, and that your choices become instinctive rather than thought-invoking - can also be of some help.
For example, do you know any other sword that can add to attacks per round other than the Belm? Do you know that Chaos can kill anything it touches given enough time? Do you know that you can use the Rift Device against Mel if you want?
I'm not trying to brag here, but if you don't know how to get the items that can make the Blade good enough to be of match against a Kensai, or powerful enough to kill a Sorcerer with ease (provided the Sorcerer does not resolve to playing the waiting game - in which case it's a matter of which player is the better one) you might never know how powerful a Bard can be.

So think about it. In this game, the Mage or Sorcerer is not the most powerful person in the world. In this game, ANYONE can become strong enough that even ELMINSTER will admit that he has been surpassed.

Hoperfully, that will help give some of you some things to ponder on.

 

Personally, I like bards simply because they give you that sense of closure. Despite the fact that you don't need to identify weapons and armour to use their basic advantages, or rings/jewellery to use their stat-raising abilities, I like having the ability to say 'Hey, I've got the Sword of Ultimate Killyness' without having to add 'yeah it's the one with the blue thing around it'.

 

What about Jester? If you install the newest ToB patch, you may notice, that at level 20, his bard song gains the effects of confuse, stun and slow. Not bad, huh? Though, I am not really sure about the mechanism of it. If someone knows something more about those extra effects, please post in. And as for that harp that also confuses enemies, it can do it only once per day. Jester is able to confuse enemies all day long. And when you sing, enemies have to make their saving throw every round! That means, if you fail the first time, or you didn't confuse all the enemies, nothing stops you from trying again. I don't think, that Jesters are as bad as everyone says.

 

A post from another board a long time ago about exploiting MMM with a bard:

Personally, I read a post elsewhere long ago about a solo skald that went through TOB. It interested me so I tried a solo blade. I prefer a mage/thief. The reasoning isn't a matter of who is more effective etc but rather it is a matter of enjoyment. With a bard, there are some devastating tactics available as mentioned above by others, but, the tactics are more limited in my experience. A thief/mage on the otherhand will have a larger number of spells to choose from as well as backstab making it easier to explore different tactics -- this is more fun for me and why I'd pick a mage/thief.

 

With a bard, there are some devastating tactics available as mentioned above by others, but, the tactics are more limited in my experience.
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There's where you're wrong... simply because the Bard can use every other tactic known, plus variations of these tactics using skills not found in other classes, plus his own.
Backstab and Hide tactics are the only exemptions of this - ditto priest/druid-spell and class-innate related tactics. Now, if we make a graph of this the Bard is a long way in the top, with nobody even coming near.

I've never had my Blade wield Crom Faeyr - except on my first few rounds. It's a nice hammer with its -sets 25 strength-, but I could do that just as easily with a few spells and potions.
I also use a similar tactic, but I prefer using the meteors with Celestial Fury or Blackrazor. CF keeps the opponent away - Blackrazor makes him easier to kill since I barely know any creature in the game invulnerable to Level or Stat Drain.

Heh, it seems that more and more of the Blade's tactics are coming out.
Should we go on then, or is this enough to please you O haters of Bard-kin?

BTW,
Whoever said Jesters suck? The only thing that can stop them are enemies who can't hear their song...

 

Someone up there asked about Jesters song in ToB:

* Level 1+ causes confusion with save vs spells at +2
* Level 15+ slows enemies with save vs spells (no penalty or bonus)
* Level 20+ causes enemies to sleep with save vs spells at +2

The effects are cumulative so a Jester at level 20+ singing bard song would require all enemies to save against all three effects every round.

 

Bards aren't the best, nor are they the worst -- no one class holds either distinction. The game was meant to be played with a well-balanced party, and so this shouldn't be a mystery to anyone. But bards can be hard to handle properly for some players. Try one some time. Or don't. Just do whatever makes it fun to play the game....

I think the problem here is that too many of you want the bard to be something he is not -- a fighter/mage/thief with no class restrictions! If you remember that he is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, then you will be able to maximize his potential and see the worthiness of his benefits.

As an old PnP player, though, I hated the original AD&D bard, but I loved the Dragon Magazine's "Welsh bard" -- fewer thief abilities, and spells from the druid and the illusionist spell lists!

 

Actually, if your topic looks very alike the one Aldeth post long ago.... But maybe it was at SOA. Anyway, I don't like bards. Ok, I know Bard songs combine with projectile image and the likes are a super combos. But all this seems to be cheesy. If one were to compare bard with mage/thief with no cheesy tactic, the mage/thief will be able to throw more spells, more useful and certainly more powerful.

 

bards aint the best class in my oppinion.

but i like them anyway.

the skald song is useful and beeing able to throw some extra spells is useful.

 

Digging up my old topic, eh? Nice!

I have to say that I originally started this topic because I really thought bards sucked ass. But I'd never played one, so I didn't know for sure, it was just my suspicion based on what I read as their abilities. But now I'd have to say I've converted quite a bit.

I'm playing through the game right now with HaerD'alis in my party and I'm having a blast. He's versatile, has a great spell repetoire at his disposal, and his offensive/defensive spin abilities definitely make him an asset in a tough battle. I offset his crappy hitpoints with the Belt of Fortitude. If it weren't for the Melodic Chain and the other nice Bard-friendly armor, I still would've probably written him off. But at the moment I'm very happy with him, and may create a Blade as my protagonist for my next game. Fun fun.

PS - that's why I started this topic - to be proven wrong about bards. Now I like 'em.

 

just to mention it:

the bard can use scarlett ninja-to +3 when the bard get "use any items" ability.

the weapon gives 1 more attack per round and deals an poison effect to enemies.

nice off hand weapon for thiefs and bards.

 

I had Haer d'Alis in my party and I found him kinda useful. Not good for melee, but perfect as "second mage", sniper, lore and bard's song has saved the day a pair of times.

And by the way, from 20th level and on a bard cant set traps!!. Painful.

Ah, and very amusing when starts to talk to Aerie..

 

This forum has inspired me.I have always considered the bard to be less than amusing from a powergamer's viewpoint. Now I believe it would be a true challenge to solo one through both SoA and ToB. It's all about making the best of what you have, I suppose.

 

in my oppinion, every class and kit is worth a look.

it's just a matter of having the courage and will to try them.

only one kit i haven't tried yet, and that is the beastmaster (which imao look sucky).