Keldorn Firecam

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I made the mistake of having Keldorn in the party and starting Mae'Var's Thief quests. When we accepted the quest of stealing the golden figurine from the Temple of Lathander, Keldorn left the party. I have visited both the Temple of Helm and his own estate in the Government District and have been unable to find him. Any suggestions on how I could find him and get him back in the party?

 

Don't steal next time. Paladin's won't have anything to do with such things

Syl...

 

Eh, screw Keldorn. I remember he once walked out on my party in the middle of the Twisted Rune battle. He got turned to stone, I stone-to-fleshed him, and when I talked to him to get him back in the party he says:

Keldorn: "Waaaa!! I have to go see my family! Waaaa!!"
*Smack!
Me: Shut your mouth and fall in line, wench!

Then he just walks out of the Twisted Rune room! I sure would like to know how he left!
He had Carsomyr, Red Dragon Scale, Gloves of Dexterity, Helm of Balduran, etc.. and he abandons me in the middle of the fight!

Look for him in the Order of the Radiant Heart building in the Temple district. He keeps a room there in the back.

Amon-Ra

 

My main charcacter (Paladin) didn't seem to mind...

 

Then you're not playing a Paladin.

Here is a living example of why I dislike Paladins in a CRPG. People play them for the abilities, not the role-playing experience.

Syl..

 

Syl: As I have voiced before, ditto.
Though your options aren't exactly great:

Vampires, or Thieves?
Do you want to associate with Nuetral-Evil-ish, or Chaotic-Nuetral-ish? Hmm...

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
Honestly, is there no other way to find commision a boat??! Can the Order not get you a boat? The Temple of Helm/Lathander? I mean, honestly...

Amon-Ra

 

Not really. A guild of thieves vs a guild of vampires have more differences than just an alignment as you say.

A guild of thieves may not be perfectly "good" or right on track, but at least they are human and are trying to make a living.

Vampires are far from anything living and have no sense of honor. A thieves guild has honor, to an extent and I'd rather have a blade in my back for doing the guild dishonor over some teeth in my neck just because my boss was hungry.

Syl...

 

To say a thief has a sense of honor is, well, strange. To plant a dagger in someone's back is honorable? To slip poison into someone's glass is honorable? A thief has not HONOR, but rather a distorted sense of PRIDE they call HONOR. In your example, the dagger was not placed in your back because you "dishonored" them, but because you made your boss look bad. Besides, from his appearance, Aran Linvail has all the wealth he needs. It's not like they are stealing to survive. They are thieves for the prestige of it, and purposefully called "Shadow Thieves" to conjure the comparison to a darker, shady assassin, rather than a goon or a common thug. You can see the operations of torture in both Mae'Var's guildhall and Aran Linvail's place. Neither choice is very good, nor very lawful.

Anyway, how is this difference not represented in alignment?

Nuetral VS Chaotic
The Vamp's dont care for any laws nor do they care for petty larceny. The thieves on the other hand break the law by their very nature.

Evil VS Nuetral
Again, the Vampires are obviously evil. The thieves are not necessarily so, and as you said can be just doing it as a livelihood. I concede that one is worse, I never said anything against that in fact, but neither is good.

What is not covered by this analysis? Both are against the ways of a Paladin, as was my original argument. That is what I intended to say, and forgive yourself if you read it wrong(j/k).

Amon-Ra

 

Cool.

Syl...

 

When the quest calls for a little pilfering, I make sure only my thief goes in for it. In the case of Mae'Var's quest, I had to go to the Temple of Talos to retrieve a necklace.

Yoshimo went in alone, whilst my paladin and the rest of the party waited near the district exit. So, he didn't actually take part in the theft...So as for my questions:

Is that wrong from the paladins standpoint?

Or, Is the fact that undertaking the quest with less than reputable folk in order to accomplish a greater good a bad thing?

Or am I just not rigid enough to play a paladin?

 

Well if you (IMHO) tried to play as true paladin there would be no way to finish the game right?

[This message has been edited by Weasel (edited January 03, 2001).]

 

That's what I was thinking...Plus, there's the old saying: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend..."

It's never a good thing to be unwavering all of the time. Sometimes you have to weigh things compared to the overall objective, and do things you may not otherwise do.

 

Bah, you are wrong. You CAN finish the game playing a true Paladin.

Most people cannot abide loss and thus cannot.

Would you be willing to abandon Carsomyr to save life?

Can you control yourself enough to respect people's property AND privacy?, or do you grab anything that's not locked down, even in people's homes?

As for the choice between Aran Linvail and Bodhi, from the strategic point of view (and my mind goes into this mode first) it would be best to side with Bodhi first, as you get to FINISH the Thieves Guild AND the vampires later. Nothing could be more satisfying to a bloodlusting zealot.

Unfortunately, I hear Bodhi has you do some pretty evil things (and it's against human nature anyway to side with blood sucking creatures thirsty for yours). And from experience Aran never asks you to do anything bad.

Compare this to Mae Var's missions, which are little more than powerplays, and brutal, sadistic ones at that. Why do his quests at all? What would you achieve? Gold? "Experience"? Items? Would you be saving life or would you be taking it? Would you be toppling evil or would you be strenghening it?

As Amon said, both choices are not very good, but from the facts he presents it's already very clear which side you will take (and accepting Aran Linvail's help does not equate the infiltration of Mae Var's guild). Just perhaps his conclusion is wrong.

 

How can i be wrong in asking a question? From reading the whole thread either way is not the lawful way.

 

I'm just thinking that actions come in degrees. Plus, you can get around most of Mae'Var's quests. I didn't kill that thief, I just took his dagger...That Cowled Wizard...Well, that's another story, but he attacked me first!

 

If you have a high Charisma, then Keldorn would not leave your party if he doesn't like what your doing. He will tell you that he is not happy with what your doing.

 

In defense, I would say this:

As to my conclusion, it is simple: Neither choice allowed would please, nor be acceptable in the eyes of a 'true paladin'. Ignorance does not beget tolerance. If you met a known assassin, yet had never seen any of his crimes, would you still not judge him as a killer based on what you had heard? Would a Paladin be open minded enough to let the assassin continue, as he had no solid proof of his evil ways? Absolutely not. He would do his ignorant, zealous persecution until either he or the assassin were dead. You might never see Mae'Var's guildhall, nor the torture that goes on there, but any smart paladin could guess that the thieves are not on a righteous path. Just because you cannot see their darkness does not mean it cannot exist.

To a lesser degree, though Linvail has you do 'nothing bad', you are still aiding a known and self-proclaimed Shadowmaster, a leader of a powerful guild of thieves. How can a 'true paladin' knowingly do this? Because at least Linvail does not ask him to kill? I think not. Any true paladin would seek aid elsewhere, through the Order of the Radiant Heart or one of the major temples. This is not presented as an option, however, and it immediately shows the sacrifices you will have to make if you indeed wish to find Imoen and defeat Irenicus.

Amon-Ra

 

I´ve always preffererd to play dual classed fighter-thieves, so I don´t have to mind about paladins path of honour.

To get right to the start: I played a chaotic good thief and I had to steal the talon´s necklace. I guess that what you have to steal is an item of the temple of your opposite alignment: Good - Evil (Talos).
Following this I bet that Steele played an evil aligned character, so he had to steal at lathander´s temple. In that case I think that Keldorn had to leave your party, no matter how high your charisma is.

 

Well, usually when I play Paladin, or Paladin-like characters, I play them truely LG. In that way, I agree with you Amon-Ra, but I think the reaction of a Paladin depends on his mind stats (Int and Wis). And, it is very difficult to generalyze a 'standard' behavior for a Paladin, there isn't one way to solve a problem...

In my 1st BG2 game, my main character was a Paladin, and according to his mind stats, he focused only on the Imoen rescue. I knew that he could get Carsomyr and other nice stuff (like the cloak of Turning), but it wasn't his main plot.

Few words about alignments, I read on this thread that Thiefs are CN and Vampires NE. Well, IMHO Thiefs can have all alignment except LG. Robin Hood : CG, and some people in his team : NG. Guilds of Assassins, professional killer : LE. A mad serial killer : CE...

It's a pity that a lot of people tend to generalyze one point of view to a whole class. You can even imagine a Good Vampire that tries to maintain his/her humanity, anyone read the A. Rice serie, what about Louis ? Well, definitely no, there is no generalization .

 

I generalized thieves as CN because they are. All of your other examples are rogues, and this is why the word 'thief' was changed to rogue in 3rd edition (robin hood? ranger maybe? After all, he is fighting evil). A 'thief' is someone who steals, which by its very nature isn't lawful. Assassins are not thieves. They don't steal. Shadow 'Thieves' are pilferers, and thus are True nuetral or Chaotic-Nuetral.

I believe they have a TV show about that good Vampire bit here in the US. hehe. But he is the exception that proves the rule.

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited January 06, 2001).]