POLL: Imoen / Sarevok: Would it REALLY be incest?

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^I wondered that too, will the mother's race change depended upon PC's race? She (or her apparition) is seen briefly in ToB, I never played with short races, so I can not know.

Anyway, I don'T think it would be incest at all. Bhaal's children only share his essence, a drop of his power. NOT his DNA or genetic code as gods do not have such things IMHO. While sharing the same essence can make them 'siblings' somewhat, this is more of a term than actual meaning I guess.

Then again Imoen/PC romance...well it can be considered incest as the two grew up together. But did they grow up as friends, or brother/sister only? Or did they even like each other from the very beginning? Oh so many questions...makes my head spin.

 

The apparition of the PC's mother is always of the same race as the PC. I've played the short races, elven races and humans.

I voted no. I don't see Bhaal's essence as "genes" in the normal sense of the word. Imoen and the PC were childhood friends, no matter how close.

 

^Welcome to the club, Susipaisti, we think pretty much the same way in this subject! Ever tried Imoen romance? I will most certainly try once it is updated bug-free and I have the courage...

 

Hi, this is my first post (even though I've been a reader for a while now). This one popped into my mind a while ago

Definately no: the way I see it, FG is a fantasy world of myth and magic, just like ancient Greece with their mythologies etc. Did the Greek gods care about "doing it with one's sister"? No, all the heroes, gods and everything in between did it with no problems at all. They even thought it kept the divine blood "pure" et al.

The rule that doing it with one's sibling is incest (which is a denouncing word by the way) only applies to the mere mortals, imo

 

I just started thinking about it and the idea somehow seems strange...not incest-strange, it's just that I've always seen them as platonic friends only. I've never really thought of Imoen as a candidate for some reason.

The brother/sister thing is only social and from a roleplaying perspective requires that those kind of dialogue options are taken. They can be seen being "just like" siblings, but to me that's all. One can consider an Imoen romance ewwy because they consider them *like* siblings, but biologically they're not, imo.

 

Apparently someone doesn't know the quote I'm talking about; i would have thought it'd be obvious, but anyway... "Any sufficiently advanced science would seem as magic to a less advanced culture." Basically, D&D magic is only a science that we cannot comprehend the workings of. There is no such thing as true magic, since everything must have some way of working or else it just plain wouldn't.

Given, but he's the best we've got barring someone who read an FR book that went into detail.

Well, he isn't permanently dead in the same sense that Valygar isn't permanently dead unless he got chunked, but really. He can still be brought back, but that doesn't mean he's not dead as a doornail at the moment. I agree that in most D&D campaigns, gods cannot be killed except possibly by other gods, but FR is different.

Right, but then he infused the child with his essence, making them god-spawn. Though that does make a strong argument for an avatar as opposed to a mortal unless I've missed a spell somewhere.
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Perhaps a modified version of Magic Jar? I don't know.
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The Greeks themselves (I think) and most royal families thought so as well, and that's how they ended up with inbreeding and started the whole incest taboo. But your point is well taken as another example of variable deific DNA.
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@those who think that there was no DNA transferred, only essence:
Okay, so where did the other half come from? Did he just clone the mother (but then where would the Y chromosome have come from for the males)? Or perhaps he simply manipulated the DNA of the egg to compliment itself. Just curious what your thoughts are.

For that matter, what about the woman's part of this? Did Bhaal cast a Detect Ovulation spell to ensure that the women he mated with would bear his children? Or did he Induce Ovulation? Or does the cloning thing start to look more reasonable?

Mine too. You know, this would all be much simpler if we just assumed that he did everything prior to the Time of Troubles and wrote it off as deific power.

 

Unfortunately I'm not very good at recognising quotes, although I begin to understand your perspective based on that. So you're arguing that even powers aren't above simple biology? Okay.

I know, I was just making the point that Bhaal didn't "die" during the Time of Troubles in the same way a mortal dies. He lost most of his power and his portfolio, but gods don't die, and they weren't reduced to mortality during that period. They were then and are now gods, therefore it doesn't follow that they automatically took on the reproductive properties of mortals during their stint in the Godswar.

Presumably he used a part of his power to create his children, else it's difficult to see how they would've had any bearing on his 'resurrection'.

So I guess the only point we differ on is that powers are capable of manipulating mortal biology to the extent that they could, say, create a male child from only a female parent with no additional genetic material. I think that considering all the other impossible stuff they're supposedly capable of, this would be quite trivial for them. I'm not immovable on this, I just see no reason as yet to assume that a deity would in any way resemble a mortal, least of all in their physiology or the limitations of their power.

 

I'd say it wouldn't be incest. Depending on the views of the society which I don't think are really touched upon as there are a number of them it might be taboo but then you just move somewhere where people don't know I guess.

I think part of it would be use pushing our own Societal Views onto the game. Perhaps that is even why that BG1 and even BG2 seem to take a rather hard stance that they are only dear friends and nothing more in the dialog options and such. Which is not surprising. They seem to have their hands pretty all over all of the romances don't they? Anomen's a Bragging Jerk. Aerie is rather Manipulative in her needs for attention if you romance her. Jaheira's got that strong Shell you have to totally break through. Not surprising in the least the closest they get to taboo in sleeping around and such they make into Viconia and make her evil on top of it.

Viconia could have lived her life and not been evil but it seems underlying that they did Impress certain values onto the game to some extent. Faithful Closed Jaheira = good(i base this more on what her alignment seems to be and not the Druid restriction that shows on her page). Doting Coddled innocent Aerie = good. Experienced and troubled Viconia showing certain almost taboo Sexual Practices and Morals = Evil.


As for the side topic of whether Magic is a Science....

On this matter. For Second Edition. Magic is very much a science. It's a combination of particular movements, phrases, and Alchemic Ingredients to have any spell take place. You can draw direct simularities to our science between the way the two work. They take A Very Structured course on how they work, how they are created/discovered(In that if you've really looked a Mage's spell Labratory looks very much like a Midevil Alchemist's or even a propper Scientists would). They are even rather Structured in Second Edition for the most part on why they work.

As Some Argue on these boards all the time. Sorcerer's are not Second Edition classes. Those Creatures that have certain innate spells, Whether Sentient or not, mostly function on the same level as creatures in our own world that we have scientifically proved to have adapted uniquely to their environments and are only a few unique powers. The Dragon's Breath Weapon even could be said that it has Scientific basis in lizards found in our own world even though they put it to incredible "magical" function in the mythical setting. Even Dragons which are seen as Wholey magical and fantastical creatures need to study magic for the most part to be able to use it. Particularly in a Function as capable as any Magic user.

So it is indeed at least for the setting we're discussing a Science.

 

I find this thread rather interesting. Here is my opinion... if it counts...

I don't think that it is so much an incest thing amongst the NPC's, rather a moral issue by the player themselves. As this game and site is concerned, I am pretty old compared to the lot of ya, I am over 35, so what I believe in tends to be somewhat different than some of the other posters on the board.

However, I saw a clip on a TV news program, of 13 children, with 7 mothers, none of which knew each other. All had children via a sperm donor known only as donor 401.

What blew me away, is these kids who ranged in age from 7 years to 8 months, almost all looked alike, two looking like they were a set of twins, although born to different mothers. I will say genetics does have a little something to do with that. Some states, do have what is called affinity laws, something where it is not a matter of blood relation per se, but just because of public opinion. I have a perfect example of that in my own family. I have teenaged kids. My second spouse, father of my youngest daughter, also has another daughter with a different mom. I have a son the same age from a prior marriage. Now, although I am no longer married to either of these men, should my son come and tell me he would want to date this young lady, both me and my ex would protest it. Why? For quite a few years of their lives when they were small, they were raised as brother and sister, although they were step brother-step sister, and secondly, his sister is also her sister ( my youngest daughter that is) and that makes everything rather , well, messy.

I have seen a few other outrageous relationships like I also had a friend who got married to this guy her age, they divorced and she married his father, and had a kid, so she ended up giving birth to her ex-husbands half brother.

Back in the old days when arranged marriages took place to keep the bloodlines, especially within Royal families yes you saw such a thing, but look what happened to Queen Victoria's family. The hemophilia curse was started, ending with the Tsarevich Alexi, son of Nicholas II. That was messed up. Victoria's son, Edward was married to Alexandra of Denmark. Marie, Alexandra of Denmark's sister, was mother of Nicholas II. Edward's sister Alice, became a Hessian princess, and her second daughter, Alexandra, married Nicholas II, so they kept passing the defective genes back and forth . Queen Victoria herself had to have permission to marry her beloved Albert because of too close of affinity in the blood line, first cousins I believe. So here I will end todays history lesson... I say it is a moral question of the game player, and nothing more. It is fictional, and things can happen in a fictional world which does not equal to real life.

On a last note, I have always had Alianna (Pc's mother) say she was a priestess of Bhaal, and thought that it was an "honor" to bear his child which she planned to sacrifice...gristly for sure, but that was how I understood it.

 

Well the Tone of just how they were born seems to have changed quite a lot from BG1 to BG2 and this is something we have to consider. It's been talked about a bit in other threads in the past. But there are clear markers both pointing to the PC's own mother as well as Sarevok's being Raped. It seems to really not matter or play any part in SoA and really seems to have vanished. But the topic has resurfaced in ToB and the story is drastically different. There is stuff from the Solar. i don't remember the exact content. But if I recall when she summons up Gorion that something is said about all the Children of Bhaal being born to his Priestess' or something like that. And that he had a choice between saving the PC or Sarevok. He chose the PC and it all goes on from there. Which does conflict when you add up what is in BG1 both from Gorion about your PC and things about Sarevok from his Diary and the like.

Though Perhaps they just simply outright chose to make it outright less controversial to not turn people off from the game more than anything.

 

I'm extremely pleased to see how many people have taken such interest in this topic! Science vs Religiousness (in a sence) vs D & D ... VERY interesting indeed!

I think that it's definitely a difficult issue because people don't really know the specifics between what transpired when Bhall raped those women. I guess we have to guess, and with that guess we can conjure up a little image of what we feel happened to thus give us a clear picture of whether it is incest or not. Funnily enough we won't be able to do that because we'll never really know what happened (Sequel would be nice!). But hey, I guess people will just have to accept the fact that I'd be very strange having to talk about that sh!t with each other if they were the children of Bhall.

Umm I was just wondering: The PC's mother was one of Bhall's Priestesses right? Does that mean after he did what he did to her that she became evil and worshipped him or what? Or was she already evil and taken willingly?

 

Here's the story:
Bhaal raped most of them. The PC's mother was an exception as a priestess of Bhaal, and welcomed it. The children of the raped women were gathered (not born) by the other priestesses to kill them all. Gorion was trying to save your feelings (and your opinion of your mother) when he said in his letter that she was raped too; it was a lie to soothe your conscience.

I have never found any conflict in Sarevok's story at all. If you've got anything, please open a thread with the evidence; I'd be interested to see it.

 

I've seen it said a few times that the children were concieved during the time of troubles. This is not the case since that would make the PC really, really young. Bhaal spread his seed well before the time of troubles happened, and, in the case of Abizagal, way before the time of troubles.

 

It's implied in BG1 that Bhaal sired all of his children during the Time of Troubles, but TOB obviously throws this idea right out the window. I think that it's just a run of the mill plot inconsistency.

Come to think of it, the plot mutates so much from BG1 to TOB that it's hardly worth trying to keep track.

 

@ Drew,

What makes you think that Abizagal is really that old? I'm guessing the protagonist is roughly in their mid 20's, as are the rest of Bhall's spawn, so why is this really hard to believe. The same goes for the rest of the powerful Bhallspawn in ToB, they don't really appear that old do they?

 

Abazigal is a fully grown dragon... if his age category matched his abilities, he'd be 1,200 years old or more. If he was only intended to be a mature adult, and I assume he's significantly older than that, since he has a *son* who is also an adult dragon, then he'd still be at least two hundred years old. Similarly, Sendai is an adult elf, which would probably make her at least a hundred years old. Giants are also long-lived, I believe.

 

There's always the possbility that some unknown power sped the development of the slower-aging Bhaalspawn races, but the theory that Bhaal started laying his plans centuries, or even millenia in advance, makes more sense since the gods have at least some foreknowledge of the future (although exactly -how far- into the the future isn't something I know).

 

Or... the devs just screwed up.

(I've been in discussions like this before, and sometimes people actually go so far as to contact folks on the design team for the game in question, who invariably respond with something like "Oh, that? Yeah, we fudged it, sorry everybody.")

 

Actually. BG Doesn't specifically say they were born in the time of Troubles. It's based a lot more around the prophesy. All it does say is that he forsaw his death and bore a score of mortal progeny. Which you can hear again and again in various parts of that game. Though the feel of the game does heavily imply that it was all extremely recent. Specially since With Exception of the PC all of the Bhaal-Spawn that actually are part of BG1 are all short lived in nature and roughly the same age. That of being about 18 to 20. Seravok having gotten started a bit early himself.

 

Yeah, it's implied, not explicitly stated. Which is probably why they weren't too concerned about making Bhaalspawn out of long-lived races in TOB.

Abazigal would've been born at least a few hundred years prior, and Sarevok only twenty to thirty years prior, which makes it a rather long-running, overly elaborate scheme. That, or someone at the office just thought a dragon godchild would be cool.

Anyway, I guess we're kind of off-topic. What were we talking about? Oh yeah, I can't imagine Bhaal raping a female dragon.