High Level classes and diminishing returns

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Ever notice that there really isn't much difference between a 20th and 30th level Fighter? How about a Mage? A Cleric? A Monk?

It's kinda sad, but the only big difference is a few High Level Abilities. The point of this thread is to determine which class (or multiclass) character(s) go the best without hitting a level of "diminishing returns."

My initial thought is that Fighters (and their kits), Thieves (and their kits), Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians and Monks hit this "diminishing returns" level earliest. The warrior classes don't advance in THAC0 after level 20 or 21, they don't really gain too many more hit points (although it is more than any other class), by this level you're probably specialized in any and all weapons you'll ever want to use, and there's only so many "Greater Whirlwinds" one can use. The saving grace of a Paladin is the ability to summon a planetar, which is extremely powerful and helps the good cleric of the party by saving him a 7th level spell slot.

Monks reach a certain level where their magic resistance stops getting better. At that point on, they're very boring. They just don't really change at all.

Thieves still advance in all of their skills, but as seen by people who use Imoen, you don't really need any higher than 100 in locks and trap removing skills, and the other abilities are so high it doesn't matter either. Aside from some cool (or cheesey, depending on how you look at it) trap-related HLAs, and UAI (which everybody seems to take), there really isn't much in the way of High Level Abilities there either.

I guess Clerics, Druids, and Wizards (and all of their kits) are marginally better than the warrior classes because they will earn some extra spell casting slots. The HLAs of the priestly spellchuckers are pretty boring, save for "summon greater elemental" IMHO. And after passing level 14 as a druid (difficult to do if you're using Jaheira), the druid gets a bunch of bonuses, but the best of them are the added spell slots.

The arcane spellchuckers (Wizards and Sorcerers) get some cool HLAs, like the extra spell slots and improved alacrity. Aside from these, they still reach the same level of diminishing returns that all of the other classes do.

My question to you all is this: What class(es) don't hit a level of diminishing returns? Are there any? If not, what classes take a long time to hit that level? I'm thinking that the classes that take their time to hit that level will end up being the most interesting to me.

The only thing I can think of is using multiclassed characters a lot. There must be some other way.

 

The problem seems to be that what you want is a linear power progression that continues indefinately. What you get is a progression that is more like approaoching a limit asymptotically (ran the spell checker on that one - its been a *long* time since I needed that word ) . I can't fault the designers for this. After all, once your characters are capable of things like stopping time, just where were they supposed to go from there in terms of more power?

 

Oh, I'm not blaming the game designers. If anything, it's somehting integral to the AD&D rules.

My real question is: are there any classes that do keep getting better? If not, which classes come closest? Am I correct in assuming that it's the multi-classed characters that are?

 

It even to some extent copies real life. In real life we learn a lot at a fast pace. As time passes this learning begins to level off for various reasons. One of which is that what we learn becomes more complicated and takes longer to learn and assimilate. ie: I've been playing BGII for close to 5 years now (off and on) and have yet to learn it or assimilate it.

 

One of the thoughts in my final Newbie Thoughts thread will be on this very point. High levels in BGII are almost completely useless which leads to two outcomes:
1) You are almost forced to multi or dual class
2) The game becomes less interesting at higher levels.

I'm sure the rewards for each higher level are much more tangible in IWD2 and NWN (e.g. spellcasters actually getting more spells every level, more feats and skill points etc)

 

Well, for me straight Kensai and straight Swashbuckler continue to develop till the very end, and very satisfatcory development it is, too.

With multiclass it's much worse: they're bad during first 6000000 exp and begin to shine during last 2000000 exp, but with straight chars it's vice versa.

 

I'm bumping my own thread.

It's over a year old, and I'm finally actually going to persue it's goal. I figure new input would be great.

 

Mages are really nerfed in BG2, they gain level 9 spell slots so slowly, it is painful. And they can not have too many, also they stop advancing prematurely.

Get true pen&paper spell progression tables, this way mages/sorcerers will keep gaining new spell slots till level 42 or so...Note that lvl 42 as a mage is impossible without disabling the XP cap, and even then, is pretty much impossible without soloing.

Fixed saving throw tables...classes gain new saving throw bonuses in REAL high levels. (godly)

Also, get the mod which gives clerics/mages their own alchemy/scribe HLAs. This way they can still choose something as HLA when they run out of quest spells and true dwemors to pick from.

 

@Klorox:

That's a Deva you are thinking of, I believe. Unfortunately, Devas aren't as powerful as Planetars.

@Silverstar:

I think that's the first time I've ever seen that said. Normally people say the exact opposite!

 

The limit is in the AD&D system itself: Its internal prowess was made only from level 1st to 20th. Levels higher than these were only made for Hall of Heroes and other Pen and Paper AD&D books, Characters like Elminster, Silvermoon, etc.
ToB made a Scale of prowess with little or no indications on what abilities or spells should be gained beyond that point. This was partly solved by importing feats from 3rd edition-actually playtesting them-to be gained at higher levels, but little prowess was to be made.

 

@Decados,

Well I agree mages are supreme in BG2, but it is just that they could be even better, according to AD&D rules, they gain more spell slots in high levels of experience! They are much weaker than what they could be!

 

Multiclasses don't have this problem...

Archer's keep improving...
Wizardslayers keep improving too...
Blades are good this way as well...HLAs really re-define their gameplay...
Wild Mage keeps improving...more levels = better surges...

 

I believe he's referring to the big differences at higher levels though ...

 

@Silverstar:

Even better?

*shudder*

I, for one, am glad they aren't more dangerous. They are already a tad unbalanced at higher levels.

 

@Silvershield:

Yeah...that's what I was talking about...the higher levels!

Archers keep improving...sure the rate is slowed down, but they still keep improving.

Wizard Slayer MR keeps improving as well..in fact, they only really mature at higher levels...

Wild Mages get a lot better level for level when it comes to wild surges...which is VITAL when you start spamming Nahal's Reckless Dweomer...so yeah. I don't think there is a case for diminishing returns for ALL classes...just some of the basic ones..like Fighter.

@lvl 1: Me SMASH!!
@lvl 20: Me SMASH you GOOD!
@lvl 40: Me SMASH you GOOD, only I use fancy HLAs to do it...

 

Ofcourse, according to AD&D rules, mages do not get Improved Alacrities and Dragon Breaths and Summon Planetars and whatever. You can not find a Robe of Vecna easily too. So I guess BG2 tries to balance mages by toning their spell progression down, while still leaving the most powerful and broken items/HLAs to their disposal!