POLL: Build your own sorcerer! (normal mode)

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Please read this post carefully before voting.

This poll asks you to create a sorcerer for play in normal not HoFmode. Hopefully the results will be useful to future readers seeking advice about how to build their sorcerers.


A. half-orc Fighter 17
B. dwarf Cleric 17
C. human Rogue 13 / Fighter 4 (diplomat, skills)
D. human Sorcerer 17 (our character)

This is not a heavily powergamed party, but you should assume the individual characters are well built, including minimaxing.

1. This question deals with ability scores. The 18 in CHA is a no-brained, and 18 in CON seems an easy choice also. Because nearly all the skills are being handled by the Rogue, dumping INT down to 3 is a good way to free up more points to put into the remaining three stats (if you disagree with any of these assumptions, post in the thread). So you have 37 points to spread amoung STR, DEX, and WIS; vote for the answer which most closely matches your preference.

2. This question is a little tricky. To take Elemental feats, you need Spellcraft 10 (including INT mod) and the ability to cast 4th level spells. So a Sorcerer normally can take them with the feat slots he gains at 9th, 12th, and 15th levels. But because our sorcerer has such low INT, he will not have a modified Spellcraft of 10 until 11th level, thus missing the opportunity to spend his 9th level slot on an elemental feat. If his INT was 6 or more, he would not have this problem, but that means lowering some other stat by 3. Would you do this?

3. Our sorcerer will have 38 skill points at level 17 (not 40; this seems to be a bug). My choice is to max out Concentration (20), put enough in Spellcraft to qualify for the elemental feats (14), leaving 4 points for other skills. Do you agree with this?

4. Our sorcerer will have seven feats at level 17. I didn't bother listing the ones that I think are clearly useless, but did include four weapon-related feats in case anyone prefers them. Note that we already have Weapon Proficiency in Crossbow, Missile, Mace, Quarterstaff, and Small Blade for free. Regardless of your answers to questions 2 and 3, you may choose up to three elemental feats.

5. Choose five 1st level spells.

6. Choose five 2nd level spells.

7. Choose four 3rd level spells.

8. Choose four 4th level spells.

9. Choose four 5th level spells.

10. Choose three 6th level spells.

11. Choose three 7th level spells.

12. Choose two 8th level spells.

13. Would you give up one sorcerer level to take a paladin level?
..... +6 or more to all saves
..... Free weapon proficiency in everything
..... Can wield Holy Avenger (SR, free unlimited Dispel Magic)
..... One less 7th level spell per day; only two 7th level spells known
..... One less 8th level spell per day; only one 8th level spell known
..... Slightly less duration and damage on most spells.

14. You won't reach level 18, but pick a 9th level spell anyway.

Poll Information
This poll contains 14 question(s). 15 user(s) have voted.

Poll Results: Build your own sorcerer! (normal mode) (15 votes.)

CON 18, INT 3, CHA 18. Assign 37 points to STR, DEX, WIS. (Choose 1)
* STR 18, DEX 10, WIS 9 - 7% (1)
* STR 18, DEX 16, WIS 3 - 20% (3)
* STR 9, DEX 18, WIS 10 - 67% (10)
* STR 9, DEX 10, WIS 18 - 7% (1)

Would you set INT to 6 instead of 3? (Choose 1)
* Yes; I want three elemental feats. - 20% (3)
* Yes; I want only one or two elemental feats but I want them sooner. - 7% (1)
* No; I'm satisfied with only one or two elemental feats. - 60% (9)
* No; I wouldn't choose any elemental feats. - 13% (2)

Would you max out Concentration and put 14 in Spellcraft? (Choose 1)
* Yes. - 93% (14)
* No; I wouldn't bother with Spellcraft because I wouldn't choose any elemental feats - 7% (1)
* No; I don't believe in Concentration - 0% (0)
* No; I'd skip both Spellcraft and Concentration - 0% (0)

Choose seven feats. (Choose 7)
* Aegis of Rime (cold) - 27% (4)
* Aqua Mortis (acid) - 20% (3)
* Scion of Storms (lightning) - 13% (2)
* Spirit of Flame (fire) - 80% (12)
* Spell Focus: Enchantment - 40% (6)
* Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment - 13% (2)
* Spell Focus: Evocation - 80% (12)
* Greater Spell Focus: Evocation - 67% (10)
* Spell Focus: Necromancy - 53% (8)
* Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy - 27% (4)
* Spell Focus: Transmutation - 20% (3)
* Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation - 20% (3)
* Spell Penetration - 33% (5)
* Greater Spell Penetration - 27% (4)
* Sub-vocal Casting - 40% (6)
* Combat Casting - 33% (5)
* Discipline - 7% (1)
* Great Fortitude - 0% (0)
* Iron Will - 7% (1)
* Lightning Reflexes - 13% (2)
* Luck of Heroes - 13% (2)
* Dash - 33% (5)
* Weapon Proficiency (any) - 0% (0)
* Weapon Focus (any) - 7% (1)
* Precise Shot - 7% (1)
* Rapid Shot - 20% (3)

Choose five 1st level spells. (Choose 5)
* Burning Hands - 40% (6)
* Charm Person - 20% (3)
* Chill Touch - 0% (0)
* Chromatic Orb - 73% (11)
* Color Spray - 0% (0)
* Grease - 20% (3)
* Ice Dagger - 7% (1)
* Identify - 67% (10)
* Larloch's Minor Drain - 7% (1)
* Mage Armor - 40% (6)
* Magic Missile - 100% (15)
* Minor Mirror Image - 7% (1)
* Protection From Evil - 33% (5)
* Protection from Petrification - 0% (0)
* Ray of Enfeeblement - 20% (3)
* Shield - 27% (4)
* Shocking Grasp - 7% (1)
* Sleep - 33% (5)
* Summon Monster I - 0% (0)

Choose five 2nd level spells. (Choose 5)
* Aganazzar's Scorcher - 33% (5)
* Blindness - 13% (2)
* Blur - 13% (2)
* Bull's Strength - 33% (5)
* Cat's Grace - 47% (7)
* Deafness - 0% (0)
* Death Armor - 7% (1)
* Decastave - 0% (0)
* Eagle's Splendor - 47% (7)
* Gedlee's Electric Loop - 7% (1)
* Ghoul Touch - 0% (0)
* Horror - 20% (3)
* Invisibility - 33% (5)
* Knock - 13% (2)
* Luck - 13% (2)
* Melf's Acid Arrow - 40% (6)
* Minor Elemental Barrier - 0% (0)
* Mirror Image - 73% (11)
* Power Word: Sleep - 7% (1)
* Protection from Arrows - 20% (3)
* See Invisibility - 0% (0)
* Snilloc's Snowball Swarm - 33% (5)
* Summon Monster II - 7% (1)
* Vocalize - 7% (1)
* Web - 27% (4)

Choose four 3rd level spells. (Choose 4)
* Blink - 7% (1)
* Dire Charm - 0% (0)
* Dispel Magic - 27% (4)
* Fireball - 80% (12)
* Flame Arrow - 47% (7)
* Ghost Armor - 27% (4)
* Haste - 40% (6)
* Hold Person - 0% (0)
* Icelance - 7% (1)
* Invisibility Sphere - 7% (1)
* Lance of Disruption - 0% (0)
* Lightning Bolt - 13% (2)
* Magic Circle Against Evil - 0% (0)
* Melf's Minute Meteors - 20% (3)
* Nondetection - 0% (0)
* Protection from Fire - 0% (0)
* Skull Trap - 53% (8)
* Slow - 33% (5)
* Stinking Cloud - 7% (1)
* Summon Monster III - 13% (2)
* Vampiric Touch - 13% (2)

Choose four 4th level spells. (Choose 4)
* Beltyn's Burning Blood - 7% (1)
* Blood Rage - 0% (0)
* Confusion - 27% (4)
* Contagation - 0% (0)
* Emotion: Despair - 7% (1)
* Emotion: Fear - 0% (0)
* Emotion: Hope - 53% (8)
* Emotion: Rage - 0% (0)
* Fire Shield (Blue) - 7% (1)
* Fire Shield (Red) - 7% (1)
* Ice Storm - 33% (5)
* Improved Invisibility - 27% (4)
* Malison - 27% (4)
* Minor Globe of Invulnerbility - 0% (0)
* Mordenkainen's Force Missiles - 40% (6)
* Otiluke's Resilient Sphere - 13% (2)
* Protection from Lightning - 0% (0)
* Remove Curse - 0% (0)
* Shadow Conjuration - 7% (1)
* Shout - 7% (1)
* Spider Spawn - 13% (2)
* Spirit Armor - 20% (3)
* Stoneskin - 73% (11)
* Summon Monster IV - 0% (0)
* Vitriolic Sphere - 20% (3)
* Wall of Fire - 0% (0)

Choose four 5th level spells. (Choose 4)
* Animate Dead - 73% (11)
* Ball Lightning - 13% (2)
* Chaos - 53% (8)
* Cloudkill - 20% (3)
* Cone of Cold - 47% (7)
* Dismissal - 20% (3)
* Dominate Person - 27% (4)
* Feeblemind - 13% (2)
* Greater Shadow Conjuration - 7% (1)
* Hold Monster - 0% (0)
* Lesser Planar Binding: Air Elemental - 0% (0)
* Lesser Planar Binding: Earth Elemental - 0% (0)
* Lesser Planar Binding: Fire Elemental - 0% (0)
* Lesser Planar Binding: Water Elemental - 0% (0)
* Lower Resistance - 53% (8)
* Phantom Blade - 0% (0)
* Protection from Acid - 0% (0)
* Protection from Electricity - 0% (0)
* Shroud of Flame - 27% (4)
* Summon Monster V - 0% (0)
* Summon Shadow - 0% (0)
* Sunfire - 40% (6)

Choose three 6th level spells. (Choose 3)
* Acid Fog - 20% (3)
* Acid Storm - 20% (3)
* Antimagic Field - 0% (0)
* Carrion Summons - 0% (0)
* Chain Lightning - 53% (8)
* Circle of Death - 7% (1)
* Darts of Bone - 0% (0)
* Disintegrate - 60% (9)
* Flesh to Stone - 0% (0)
* Globe of Invulnerability - 0% (0)
* Lich Touch - 0% (0)
* Mass Haste - 87% (13)
* Otiluke's Freezing Sphere - 7% (1)
* Planar Binding: Air Elemental - 0% (0)
* Planar Binding: Earth Elemental - 0% (0)
* Planar Binding: Fire Elemental - 7% (1)
* Planar Binding: Water Elemental - 0% (0)
* Power Word: Silence - 7% (1)
* Shades - 0% (0)
* Soul Eater - 0% (0)
* Stone to Flesh - 0% (0)
* Summon Invisible Stalker - 0% (0)
* Summon Monster VI - 0% (0)
* Tenser's Transformation - 27% (4)
* Trollish Fortitude - 7% (1)
* Wyvern Call - 0% (0)

Choose three 7th level spells. (Choose 3)
* Banishment - 7% (1)
* Cacofiend - 0% (0)
* Control Undead - 0% (0)
* Delayed Blast Fireball - 73% (11)
* Elemental Barrier - 0% (0)
* Finger of Death - 80% (12)
* Malavon's Rage - 0% (0)
* Mass Invisibility - 13% (2)
* Mordenkainen's Sword - 80% (12)
* Power Word: Stun - 7% (1)
* Prismatic Spray - 7% (1)
* Seven Eyes - 13% (2)
* Suffocate - 7% (1)
* Summon Djinni - 7% (1)
* Summon Efreeti - 0% (0)
* Summon Monster VII - 7% (1)
* Vipergout - 0% (0)

Choose two 8th level spells. (Choose 2)
* Fiery Cloud - 13% (2)
* Flaying - 13% (2)
* Great Shout - 0% (0)
* Horrid Wilting - 87% (13)
* Iron Body - 0% (0)
* Mind Blank - 7% (1)
* Power Word Blind - 20% (3)
* Summon Fiend - 0% (0)
* Summon Monster VIII - 7% (1)
* Symbol of Death - 0% (0)
* Symbol of Fear - 0% (0)
* Symbol of Hopelessness - 53% (8)
* Symbol of Pain - 0% (0)
* Symbol of Stunning - 0% (0)

Would you give up one sorcerer level to take a paladin level? (Choose 1)
* Yes. - 60% (9)
* No. - 40% (6)

Choose a 9th level spell. (Choose 1)
* Aegis - 0% (0)
* Black Blade of Disaster - 0% (0)
* Executioner's Eyes - 0% (0)
* Gate - 0% (0)
* Mass Dominate - 20% (3)
* Meteor Swarm - 7% (1)
* Power Word: Kill - 0% (0)
* Summon Monster IX - 0% (0)
* Wail of the Banshee - 73% (11)

 

Personally I would have his intelligence higher... just doesn't seem right to have a complete idiot casting spells... a giblering seems smarter!

 

38 skill points at level 17 isn't a bug.
Humans get 2 (not 4) extra skill points at creation and 1 extra skillpoint for each following level.
That's clearly stated in the manual and the in in-game description.

 

I voted, and virtually created a really neat sorcerer! Nice!

I prefer mages any day, though.

 

I voted for str 18 dex 16 wis 3 but I'd rather take str 16 dex 18 wis 3 which isn't offered.

 

Darkstrike, it is all about powergaming, and in IWD2 the standard choice is to dump INT unless you are a wizard, skill-monkey, or want Expertise.

Thanks for the clarification about skill points, kmonster. Interesting how popular the high-STR combinations are (at least so far). Thrown weapons, I guess?

Ironically, I haven't yet voted in my own poll... busy busy.

 

In my first party I used a human sorc with 3 in int. Then it seemed reasonable to assume that my sorc would sometimes get into battle or at least do some good with a bow.
Nowadays I usually use sorcs with maxed cha, int and con and use as party diplomat since the other characters have either low int (paladins) or low cha (almost all other). This way you can give the party thief some other skills and maybe even move some int to other useful abilities. This sorc should avoid taking pal-lvls so that you don't have to switch talker every time you think you'll get a reward.
A secondary sorc would then be able to have minimized int, but I prefer rogue1-2/wizards as secondary arcane caster so that I can skip the rogue and still cover some skills.

 

Mudde, there aren't really enough skills in the game to fill up more than one 18-INT character. (not counting personal skills like concentration and spellcraft)

There are the three talker skills, alchemy, knowledge, open lock, and pick pocket. None of these seven skills need to be maxed out -- 5 or 10 points is enough, if you have an 18+ in the relevant stat. Many of them can be supplemented with spells.

animal empathy - joke skill
disable device - ? never used it, cure light wounds is easy. 5 points with the high-int character if you really love playing with traps
hide, move silently - cast invisibility if you want to scout?
search - does nothing, i think
umd - take caster levels instead.
wilderness lore - joke skill

 

Belive it or not, but Search skill works excellent for finding traps, pitty there are so few of it in this game.

 

True! I just hate powergaming

 

Most traps won't kill you (almost all will barely harm you), but I like having someone that can find and disable them. Disable device needs a lot of points in it to be useful.
You need a somewhat high talking skills to get every option that those skills can give.
I usually don't use plain human characters = less skill points.
Open lock is useful for quite many locks that I find very hard to open with force. I usually don't want to spend all my lvl 2 spells on knock spells or rest before every hard lock.
Alchemy and knowledge arcana are nice to have.
I find having some points in hide and move silent (4 points from starting as rogue) is useful in the area near the horde fortress. Same there - I like freeing spell slots for more useful spells.
Don't know if I missed any useful skills, but the rest aren't that useful.

Having two persons with high int lets you cover all those skills. The loss of some dex on the main spellcaster isn't too much anyway, especially if you want to use another race than human and want both spellcraft and concentration (you would then need 12 int or sacrifice some concentration).

In a well built party the main caster probably wouldn't need much strength, will or dex anyway. Sorcs are a great class that can sacrifice some ability points for some talking skills and they already have high charisma. They don't need much more than high casting-ability and decent con anyway.!

 

An XL17 non-human, non-rogue with 18 INT gets 100 skill points, which is quite enough for IWD2. Make him a human for 18 more, and/or start with a rogue level for 12 (?) more.


(this is a game you can beat fairly easily without any skill points at all, if you like)

 

@JT2: Max con + some spellcraft takes away almost 30 of those 100 if the char is a spellcaster. some skills will have to be non-class skills unless you multiclass a lot. You can still pass the game with a lot less skills than that, but the sacrifices that has to be made to get the extra skill points aren't that great, at least not to a sorc!
My sorcs don't need great dex - they have mirror image and offensive spells instead of a small AC-bonus and some extra AB on their crossbow. 8 str lets them carry enough. they have will save as their strong save and spells to avoid getting charmed so wis can be somewhat low. This gives plenty of points to spend on cha, con and int!
If you plan on having only one cha with 18int then the sorc would probably be your best bet! The party rogue and most other characters should probably have to minimize cha to even be moderatly useful if he needs 18 int, otherwise they will be weak in almost every other aspect. This makes him a bad talker at the beginning of the game.

 

*deleted blabla about spellcraft, didn't understand first time... me dumb!*

 

Adding a level of paladin to a sorcerer seems like a no-brainer to me..I'm surprised the poll is so evenly split. Not only does a sorcerer gain the use of the Holy Avenger and greatly bolster his saving throws but he also gains +1 to strength and wisdom and 5 hitpoints upon completing the paladin's quest in Kuldahar. Another bonus, which is a little trivial, I like exposing Limha without finding the dryad and confronting the real Thoraskuss without asking the wizard in dragon's eye for information.

 

@nunsbane
I voted for not taking the pal lvl. In this exact case where you have another talker I would probably take it but I always use my sorc as party talker and then the paladin lvl is bad.

 

Hmm, 13 votes... unlucky?

Winning feats so far are:

Spirit of Flame
Spell Focus: Evocation
Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Spell Focus: Necromancy
(tie) Sub-vocal Casting
(tie) Combat Casting
(tie) Dash

The biggest omission here IMO is GSF: enchantment. Sub-vocal casting is a wasted feat.

The Paladin vote is pretty close, but I bet Sorc 18 would easily beat Sorc 17/Pal 1 if we voted on that.

I noticed that a few spells, which I'd thought automatic, have 10 votes instead of all 13:
chromatic orb
mirror image
stoneskin??!!!
DBF
mordy's sword
... wonder if the same three people dissented on all of these?

Other spell comments:
Only three votes for Charm Person
Only two for Pro: Arrows! Is it because of the annoying animation?
The third level winners are weird: Three ways to blast the enemy, and only one support spell (Haste). Dispel Magic, Slow, and Ghost Armor (!) all miss the cut.
I didn't think to vote for Animate Dead, but actually it is a pretty good choice. It is the best summon available in the 1st-5th level slots.
How does Chain Lightning get more votes than acid fog and acid storm put together?
Disintegrate is overrated. The DC is actually 1 *less* than Dominate Person, even before we consider the SF and GSF feats.
I was the only one to vote for Mind Blank. Maybe it is just not useful until HoF
Mass Dominate is so much more powerful than Wail...

 

"Charm person" only helps vs humanoids, you can't really control them while the spell is in effect and if they aren't killed before the spell wears off you don't get any XP.
Other spells like identify or mage armor help more making the game easier.

The problem with "Protection from arrows" is that there ae so many good level 2 spells. Cat's grace and eagle's splendor offer bonusses which help even vs non-archers for a long time, mirror image is just overpowered and when you get your fourth pick you can already get 10 damage reduction vs all weapons with the stoneskin spell.

Chain Lightning gets "more votes than acid fog and acid storm put together", because it's better than acid fog and acid storm put together.
It does high damage and you don't have to worry about hurting party members or missing enemies because they leave the area of effect as with the slow cast acid spells.

I'm surprised that "improved invisibility" got only 3 votes, this spell is extremely useful, not only for beating the battle squares in a non-cheesy way.
50 percent miss chance for enemies and protection from being targeted by spells can help a lot if it gets rough during the game.


Regarding power GSF enchantment is surely more useful than GSF evocation or elemental feats, but higher damage numbers are more fun.

 

There are some enemies that very resistant to other forms of elemental damage, but not to electrical damage. And Chain Lightning is the highest level electrical spell, and, as Kmonster mentions, it's an enemies only spell. Enemies-only area effect spells are relatively rare, so it's important to take them when they come along.

And while Acid Storm is nice, it's not a critical spell, and one can skip it as a go-between AE spell between Fireball and Delayed Fireball.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. As spell levels increase, I tend to prefer to take spells that affect multiple targets, rather than a single target.

I'm not sure I completely agree, but let me put it this way. if I was going to take only 1 L9 spell in NM, I'd probably go with Wail for this reason. In NM, with its much lower Fort saves, you'll get massive bang for your buck, late in NM. So, even if I did take WotB as my first L9 spell, MD would absolutely be my second L9 spell.

I think that with the spell choices in IWD2, some arcane levels are better for support/buffing spells and others are better for attack spells. I tend to see L2 as a buffing/support level and L3 is spell level for attack spells.

Also, while Ghost armor can be cast on targets other than your self, I tend to look on spells like Mage or Ghost Armor (for yourself) as a bit of a failure in a sense, at least with my style of play. I don't want my mages getting into melee, so any spell that enhances AC for my mages seems like a bit of a waste after Mirror Image is available.

 

Ghost armor isn't a too good spell unless you plan on building an unhittable decoy, and even then you don't really need ghost armor until HOF and maybe a few though battles late in game. Stoneskin and mirror image are THE defensive spells you should use. With them you don't need more buffing in most fights.

Area effective spells is the easiest and fastest way to go through normal mode. That makes GSF evocation more useful than GSF Enchantment.

I usually take SF and GSF evo on my primary caster late in normal mode when my decoy has high enough reflex save so that he can survive some blasting without having to use all his mirror images.
Taking them too soon can kill him.