Wizards unnecessary?

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Can anyone think of a good reason for adding a wizard to a party as opposed to a sorcerer in IWD2? I'm having a difficult time of thinking why I would chose a wizard over a sorcerer in most instances (with the exception of some multi-classing situations).

I can't think of a class specific quest for wizards, but maybe I'm being forgetful. Sorcerers have one in the Wandering Village.

There are a few wizard only items, but I can't think of any that would make up for the dearth of findable/purchasable spells available in the game.

So, can anyone think of a really great reason to pick a wizard over a sorcerer?

 

The only reason would be flexibility to cast any spell, or because you wanted to multiclass to an intelligence based character like a thief.

 

I tend to have a sorcerer AND a wizard in the party. The reason I would definately have a wizard is because, as HB said, it gives flexibility. When selecting sorcerer spells I go for ones I use a LOT. Things like fireball, force missiles, etc. But it is still necessary to be able to cast things like domination, finger of death, etc. You just want spells for a sorcerer which you cast a lot to make it worthwhile.

 

Intelligence means skill points and wizards gain more feats. With two levels of Rogue, you can make a decent enough rogue for IWD2 while you can keep a decent enough wizard. My first party had two sorceresses and no wizard. Then I soloed a paladin/wizard and I liked it but scrolls were a pain.

 

I prefer multiclassing my Rogue with Wizard (only 2 levels of Rogue). The high INT is great for both classes.

Sorcerers are better in every way, IMO.

There was one really cool character I had, he covered my backup Wizard, my Rogue, and my Tank roles:

Male Drow Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Barbarian 3/Wizard X

All of the other classes were taken before the Wizard levels. The main spellcaster was a Paladin 3/Sorcerer X (Paladin levels taken after I got "Fireball").

 

I agree with others on this. Wizards are good in IWD2 as secondary arcane spellcasters and as multiclassed casters. The rogue/wizzy is a good MC combo.

I actually played a Conjurer/Ranger once that was fun. I played that combo cuz I wanted good stealth while maximizing getting a few levels of a d10 warrior class. I think that I only took 3 or 4 levels, but she was an amusing secondary spellcaster, who specialized mostly in summoning spells and oddball area effect attack spells.

 

I always thought adding a level or two of Bard to a Rogue/Wizard mix would be nice, even if it's just for the first song(Lingering Song is great, and Wizards have more Feats than they know what to do with, plus there are many times in combat where just singing is probably more useful than firing a bow you'll probably miss with anyway), but I don't know if it's worth it.

 

Well, there are probably lots of roleplaying reasons for choosing a wizard, but I'm sure you don't need us to come up with any.

From a powergaming perspective, there is only one reason to play wizards: half the time they will be a spell level ahead of sorcs. But it does not make up for all their disadvantages:

-Have to prepare spells ahead of time. This is their worst disadvantage, and makes them far less versatile than the sorcerer.
-Get less spells per day, even if specialist (which has its own problems). Now, if you are the type to rest after ever encounter, this usually won't matter. Personally I prefer to get my party as far as possible with each rest period, and the faster (game-time) I get through each chapter, the better I am doing.
-Have to rely on finding scrolls -- such an annoyance!

They do have a few minor (very minor) advantages:
- Tons of skill points. Except that tons of skill points aren't useful in this game. If you want skills, a sorc will get enough with a 12 or 14 INT, and it only means sacrificing a little WIS, DEX, and STR.
- Can learn unlimited spells -- but you don't need to learn unlimited spells. You'll be focusing on a few staples, and the sorcerer learns enough spells to cover those.
- The extra feats. OK, these are nice. But they don't make up for the disadvantages.


This is for normal of course -- in HoF the choice becomes even more clearcut, as the main wizard advantage goes away, while the sorc advantages become greater. Much like how Drow are significantly better than Moon Elves in normal, but in HoF they are extremely, overwhelmingly, better.

 

Rogue/Wizard is a fun combination, and a very good multiclass. Start with 2 levels of Rogue (or even 1), and go Wizard the rest of the way. The high INT ensures your Rogue skills will always be high enough, and the only thing you really miss out on is Sneak Attack (which isn't so useful in IWD2 anyway). Aside from that though, I see no reason to have a pure Wizard in the party. Pure Sorcerers are better in every way. Of course, a Rogue/Wizard AND a Sorcerer can complement each other very nicely.

 

Sneak attack is crap next to Tenser's and Mordenkainen's... especially together. And let's not forget Executioner's Eyes...

BTW, if you go Rogue(2)/Wizard(x), you can take Ranger(1) for free dual-wielding and/or Barbarian(1) for some speed and HP and weapon allowances.

 

I agree with Takara, I usually tend to create one of each a wizard AND a sorcerer into my party. Sometimes I bring in a third as well, just because of the fact that the firepower they provide is just priceless in IWD. But I guess if you needed to choose between the too, I'd have to suggest a specialist wizard because of the extra spells AND because you'll get to learn alot more spells than a sorcerer, which you may need later on.

 

If the choice is between a single class Mage or Sorc, the Sorc comes ahead.
If the choice is between a multiclass Mage or Sorc, the Mage comes ahead. If you have some other charecter who takes over the Rogue tasks of finding & disarming traps, that reasoning falls apart.

If you already have a Sorc and another charecter taking Rogue tasks, take a Sorc.

 

Chevalier, sneak attack can be truly great ... IF you are playing a pure rogue. But if you're only playing a multiclassed rogue/wizzy (or many other rogue MC's), you won't likely build up enough levels of rogue to attack true snaek attacking greatness. Oh, maybe some fighter/rogue or ranger/rogue combos might build up a good chunk of rogue levels to have a nice sneak attack. But true sneak attacking goodness comes from a pure rogue.

However, regarding the general topic of wizards ...

I think that when people are comparing wizzies and sorcs, if you are looking at them in the SECONDARY sole behind a primary sorc nuker, I think that a wizzy really shines.

Yes, you will have fewer spells per level, but I don't think that that's a huge issue. Your primary sorc is the party nuker. The secondary spellcaster is usually responsible for filling in holes in the nuker's spellbook, being able to cast the less commonly used spells to SUPPORT the nuker, not replace him. Things like buffing, summoning, or cloud spells.

Another point about a wizzy secondary caster. As noted before, wizzies get lots of skill points. I don't know about all you guys, but when I've played with only a sorc nuker as my only arcane caster, I'd often take plenty of INT to get enough SP to get the necessary skills. However, if you have a wizzy in the secondary caster role, the wizzy can cover the important magely skills and the sorc nuker can move some of those INT stat points into other things, like DEX or CON.

 

Crucius, I think even in the secondary role, another sorc is better, just with a different selection of spells. EDIT: here is an example

Here is a set of spell lists for two XL12 sorcs in normal mode.

The first sorc has 14 INT so he can get the diplomacy skills, Knowledge(Arcana), Alchemy, Spellcraft, and a point in Pick Pocket. But he has to hose WIS and shave some points from STR and DEX. The second guy has 3 INT and better saves. First guy has GSF: Evocation and Spirit of Flame, second guy has GSF: Enchantment. I've tried to divide both the buff and combat spells intelligently.

There might be a few very minor omissions in the 1st-3rd level spells, but a wizard would still be worse than the second sorc here, because he has to prepare his spells ahead of time. If desired, the sorcs could be made a little more versatile by eliminating duplicate spells like Magic Missile and Invisibility. Adding a third sorc (!) would certainly give complete coverage.

4th and 5th level spells known are fine. You'll be spending most of the slots on Stoneskin and Cone of Cold anyway.

You are missing quite a few good 6th level spells, but those will come as the sorcs gain more XLs and spells known. Until then, you'll just have to settle for blasting everything with Acid Storm.


1st (8): Burning Hands, Chromatic Orb, Identify, Magic Missile, Shield
2nd (8): Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Invisibility, Knock, Mirror Image
3rd (7): Fireball, Ghost Armor, Invisibility Sphere, Skull Trap
4th (7): Emotion: Hope, Spirit Armor, Stoneskin
5th (6): Cone of Cold, Lower Resistance
6th (4): Acid Storm


1st (8): Charm Person, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Protection From Evil, Shield
2nd (8): Invisibility, Luck, Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, Web
3rd (7): Dispel Magic, Haste, Skull Trap, Stinking Cloud
4th (7): Emotion: Despair, Malison, Stoneskin
5th (6): Chaos, Cone of Cold
6th (4): Acid Storm

The numbers in parentheses are the number of castings per day a sorc with 22 CHA gets.

[ April 15, 2006, 17:15: Message edited by: JT ]

 

Sorcs also learn new spell levels slowly, which makes them sucky if you want to MC. When MCing, every single level is so important, so wizards are the way to go, definitely.

Or better yet, get a specialist wizard. The tirck is, if you MC to another caster class, (cleric or druid!), you can now learn your banned schools via scrolls; which means you effectively have +1 spell/level at the cost of nothing! Sweet!

 

I agree, silverstar. Wizzies can work out better if you're mutliclassing. Particularly if you want to MC to a class where INT helps both classes.

And a specialist mage can be a nice choice in a secondary role. If you have a sorc doing the nuking, you can even seriously consider something like a Conjurer, where you have to give up evocation spells (i.e. the school where most of the nasty nuker spells come from).

 

Wizards, IMHO, are the best arcane casters in the game. The high INT makes them perfect loremasters, with enough skill points to never miss a rank in Alchemy, Spellcraft, Concentration and Knowledge (Arcana). The rest of the points I like to put into Hide and Move Silently. By far my favourite character is a Tiefling wizard, base stats 12 20 15 20 10 1, acting as a bombardier, scout and lock remover.

For a sorcerer to act as more than just a bombardier you would have to sacrifice points in CON, STR or WIS, whereas the wizard, while with these stats he can never be a sorcerer, bard or spokesperson is just as effective a bombardier as a sorcerer IF you know how to use him. The sorcerer is the easier option, it doesn't require skill or finesse to play one, but a competent player with a wizard will excel.

 

I´ve been playing IWD2 during the whole weekend just to finished it in HOF mode,and guess what?
Two wizards in my party, Drow10R/20w and Tiefling 29 pure Wizard.
In the final states of the game, when the twins cast Blasphemy, those are the caracters I miss the most,Because they can do a LOT of damage to those nastys Xvim Knigths.
Unfortunately, they can´t get too much of pain( seems to be the usual in HOF).
One of the Kinghts kills my wiz with JUST two blows!!
At the time, this is the only setback I can think of a Wizard.

 

I used a drow enchanter my first time through IWD 2 as my primary caster and nothing stood before her. She would lock up or charm/dominate everything. Give her the occasional offensive spell for some back up (she killed the guardian dragon my first time through on a critical failure vs. disintigrate) and summon spells to swamp the ememies and she's considerly more effective any sorcerer I've made. Stock her up with a rage, hope, despair along with chaos and confusion for good measure and unless it's undead (which made getting the Holy Avenger VERY hard), there isn't anything she can't deal with.

A min/maxed sorcerer I can't imagine talking spells like hold person which don't work on all enemies, but I find most often making it so enemies can't fight back works better then dealing damage.

 

Lord Fox, it is entirely possible to avoid getting stunned by the Twins' blasphemy spell. Simply have your party run AWAY from the twins at the start of the battle. if all of your characters are close to the front wall (near the front door to the room), you'll be out of range and will not be stunned.

In fact, I've often sent about half of my party in the side room for the right of the main hall to deal with monster-summoning mage at the start of the battle. It keeps them well out of range of the Blasphemy and deals with an important group of the Twins' allies.