UPP (Ultimate Powergaming Party) - with links

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There was a very long subject on the official forums about the Ultimate Powergaming Party.
Here is a link to the faq which Ken J. Egervari compiled based on that discussion and many tests:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/index_tips.php

Here is a link discussing the UPP after the lastest revision of the faq.
http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=16206&highlight=upp

edited:
Perhaps some info to whet the appetite...

The UPP consist of the following characters:
- Shield Dwarf Fighter(4)/Barbarian(x)
- Shield Dwarf Battleguard of Tempus(x)
- Human Morninglord of Lathander(x)
- Drow Rogue(1)/Conjurer(x)
- Human Sorcerer(x)
- Aasimar Sorcerer(x)

[ August 02, 2003, 22:53: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Interesting link, but I do see a few weakpoints in their strategies. The first been making the drow on someone that is unlikely to receive a lot of enemy spellcasting...on a purely powerplaying concept, the very nice resisting tool is not place on the right character. The cleric or the main tank would have been more appropriate.

I cannot open 1st link(I won't pay to open it)

They have a heavy casting group, which is a HoF strategy, not bad, but I made my group on a regular level strategy and it would own a casting group at any level from 1 to 16, they really should think of giving 1 level of cleric to the wizard/sorcerer so he can cast sanctuary himself in the end(like when he already have 3+ spells that can be Gate), especially if a transmuter like my wizard, I mean, they don't get that many nice defensive effects and if the cleric don't need to save you, the cleric can be doing something else...on a side note, computer focus on cleric class character...now I wonder how they programm it, if only 1 level of cleric needed, I would give 1 level to my barbarian just to get all on him!

See the fun, I cast invi sphere(my favorite spell), I move myself around the white dragon and his wurms safely, then in a corner my cleric(alone, the group run away from her when she start casting) cast a Gate, then sanctuary, then wait for all monsters to be on the Gelugon, then cast another Gate and the wizard haste the new Gelugon *grin*...then I wait and proceed to next stage. On a side note, my 5 Gelugons all group hasted and constantly backed with a summon level 9 all died or vanish from duration when I took on the Duergar stronghold, which mean, regular monsters finish the fight with the help of my warrior(didn't cast 1 cure light spell) from a distance(they win aggro instantly when they appear from invisibility).

Gelugon >>>>> Frost Giant or Remorhaz(althought the damage output of the last could be very interesting)

 

Odd that you can't open the first link. Try this:
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/index_tips.php

I think you should read the UPP faq so you know the reasons for the choices before criticizing it.

[ August 02, 2003, 22:53: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

*nod* *nod*

Well, first, nobody will be perfect and at the ultimate point ever, you always have room to improve, if you think otherwise, you are downgrading on a regular basic.

All I say here is merely an opinion and not to be consider the truth.

Beren, if I would have done a walkthrought it might have things others miss, but, overall, mine would have lack a long time...yup yup, I miss a lot of thing, starting with the battlesquare... until I read about it on the net. I didn`t see on bartho walkthrought about the dopplegangers, yet I am sure by now most folks know about them, and it is minor...not major, just funny. I never check any other walkthrought myself, I would not have check any if not for the fact that...

In Dragon`s Eyes, if you use the alchemy kit and make only 1 item for the poison, you cannot use it again for more...I was jam and was looking for a solution as I save above all my save prior that step and didn`t want to redo all.

But...on the Drow, the main ability of the race is the resistance, putting drow to a class that received few spells(like a rogue) is a very poor choice, especially that they don`t really need it and it will never be critical for the group as, the rogue is the most expendable party member at any rate for short terms battle need. The cleric is the center of your group, you lose the cleric(hold, paralize, stunned for to long, snared, jammed, charmed or whatever...) you lose your most critic party member. You lose your rogue, odds are that you will win the fight anyway and prolly just wait for the harmfull spell to fade of his ass! Not to mention that the rogue will evade...nah, rogue is my LAST choice for a magick resistance to a character.

On a side note, a single, alone cleric, could do 90% of HoF alone, without any help. Now, I don`t do it because I like to vary...and in some fights, the cleric is not a strong asset beside been a healer, which of course matter...but will not kill the enemy. (Beastmaster been the key exemple where the cleric is healer, but have troubles do anything...the banishment they cast kinda remove all cleric offensive power...now I guess I could have zone and mem spells till they can`t banish, but that would have been exploiting the game as they should restore their banishment lines as well).

Sanctuary with Gates is a very strong combo if the group is invisible and doing nothing.

Any race that cost you a level(or more) is a huge hinderance...the more the game advance, the less it is an hinderance, but...1 level > the bonus of any race at an early stage...the more the game advance, the less you care for 1 level.

*giggles*

I am sure a chatty type...as usual...and my typo must be awfull as ever!

If you don`t summon many monsters, I really think you should go "meleers" rather then casters, casters are strongs for their summoning abilities, otherwise, they have less hps and do less raw damage. A wizard cannot keep up with his spells to the damage a ranger(or any meleer) is doing on the "hard" monsters, and the ranger can substain a lot more damage...not that I do rangers, casters are for summoning(or charming)...not for pure raw damage. But having more then 1 cleric and 1 wizard don`t increase the limit of 6 summoned...LOL...the poor damage the extra wizard and sorcerer does don`t compensate for the extra summoning power IMHO, you still can`t have more then 6.

Typical hard fight exemple...Warrior 1 critical hit for 104, and hit for 35. Warrior 2 hit for 40, 37 and 25. Barbarian hit for 32, 27 and 21. The 6 summoned monsters does some decent damage. The rogue is supporting with a heavy total of 20 or so if lucky. The cleric is restoring health or casting a summoned...then wizard is trying to do damage, but beside clearing large easy train of weaks mobs, he don`t keep up in damage on the hard monsters, no matter what they say. I really don`t understand why I should replace a meleer with more wizard/sorcerers, don`t need to clear the easy monsters fasters, need power against that evil Guardian of ultimate doom(and there is no way a wizard can do 100 damage on the Guardian each round, not even in his dreams, he have to pass the magick resistance, then the saving throws...). Of course you can hide and let the monsters you summon do the job, but with 1 cleric and 1 wizard, you don`t really need any more summoning power as far as I see...and having 3 angry meleers ready to act is always nice!

You realize the meleer with luck can kill a wizard in 1 round, is about pretty sure to do it in 2 rounds. The wizard with luck can kill a meleer in 1 round, with luck can still keep any further round, have no guarenty to kill it at all before having exhausted his/her spells...althought should eventually. The fact you don`t have better limit of summoned monsters is the big issue here. You are a lot better with 1 wizard/sorcerer then none, that is for sure...but beyond that...*shrug*

But all of this is only an opinion. I will be more then happy to consider others opinions and maybe improve.

In the 2nd edition, I was always doing a warrior 9 dual class cleric as high as possible...and always I was hesitating for warrior 13 instead(or 7)...but for the THACO, you will use your cleric THACO and losing levels mean less THACO and less THACO is like having less attacks when it matter...not to mention that your spells are more powerfull and you have more and all...but that was in another edition. My key concern was: warrior 7 is less then 1 level of cleric. Warrior 9 is more then 1 level of cleric. Warrior 13 is 5 or 6 levels of cleric(don`t recall), not to mention it was a pain to get the cleric level to 14 before using all fighter levels...while cleric 10 or 8 was not that bad at all to endure.

A well played(and prepared) pure high level cleric can do what a group can do, 90% of the time, if you use all his skills, adding other stuff to the cleric only make him/her stronger. The new convert option is just unbelievable. Add the god oriented power, it is incredible. The spells can`t directly resolve hard problems (charm, hold, damage, it get resisted, and on the side spells, the cleric does fine while healing and having AC and HPS and...sanctuary, casting a heal on self when you want to release it (or group heal) is just overwhelmingly strong against a computer, against a player it would be ever stronger as player don`t react as fast when you drop the protection!)

 

i had a lot of mail traffic with Ken and trust me : the rogue is the masterpiece of charplaning in this party. he isn't drow because of his MR but his 20 INT. you could have a tiefling in here as well but you get a dualclass malus then. i'd understand if you critizise the other char but the rogue ... no.

 

To what level would this be the UPP?
I mean, 6 level 30 Drow Monks are pretty unbeatable. I dont think I need to explain myself on that one.

 

@Taluntain

Well, oops!
I looked for it in "Walkthroughs and guides" before posting. IMHO it should be considered a guide and be moved there.

@Bloodtitan
Tiefling favored class is Rogue! Before settling with a Drow the UPP had a Tiefling in this position.

You probably mixed it up with the gender restrictions of drow. Female Drow favored class is Cleric which means that this character has to be male drow to avoid the multiclass penalty.
You are absolutely right in that Int and Dex bonuses and not MR, are the primary reason for choosing a drow.

@Anofalye
Being on the subject of the drow, let me just add that this character is a wizard, not a rogue. He gets one single rogue level. I don't think he can Evade being a level 1 Rogue.

This character handles the basic rogue duties, but don't let that fool you. He is a wizard.

There are two pure clerics in the group so having one of them disabled is not a big deal. Besides, the focus of the party is arguably the two sorcerers.

You still haven't read the UPP faq, have you?
Massive summoning is a cornerstone strategy here.

Less HP's is correct.
I don't know what you mean by "raw" damage, but rest assured that the spellcasters will be doing more damage than anyone else in HOF mode.

Completely wrong.

[ August 05, 2003, 12:15: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

ah yes i remember, Earl Grey. i was referring to an FAQ i sent in today with a similar char. but the tiefling, as he is a human does not get the same bonus of skill points as he already is human who all get much SP. the drow really works with 20 INT ... blabla you got the FAQ thus you know the drow is better.

 

Nope, could not open your link...but I read the second link message.

Yet, on hard fights, you cannot cast on the monsters that are strongs, so you are kinda, off the fight before even starting it with a wizard/sorcerer, no?

In that group, I just "learn" that lately, but losing 1 damage reduction on the dwarf for specialisation is not a wise choice, you need 1 person to stand as good as can, 1 that is not there for damage, a specialist of surviving everything. of course you will say 1 damage reduction is minimal, and the last point is the point that matter the less...2 damage is minimal and it is the damage that matter the less as equally. No?

Maybe I am wrong, but for exemple my warrior outdamage the wizard on the Guardian a very long time. Of course, against the basic monsters, my wizard outdamage the warrior, yet, with 1 wizard, I put summon monsters instead as they are a lot more efficient then a damaging spell for exemple, and with only 1 wizard, I can`t afford losing those summon spells.

So far, in HoF, I find it a lot easier then it was in regular level...only the beastmaster was surprisingly challenging(would have been cake for a heavy casting group I assume)...I am about to try the Guardian, but should find this easy unlike when I was at regular level...no?

 

Not true. Not true at all.

Errr...

Horrid Wilting: 25-200 damage at level 25+ on large groups of enemies. Granted they get saving throws for half damage, but it still adds up to far more than any melee character can do in a single round. But then that's what the Spell Focus feats are for, to reduce saving throws.

Meteor Swarm: 24-144 damage on groups

Wail of the Banshee: Instant death for up to 30 creatures at once.

And these three are in addition to the damage caused by any summoned creatures.

That's why the wizards and sorcerers buff up the melee fighters, to make them able to go toe to toe with single powerful enemies and get it over with ASAP.

 

When I looked over the barbarian, 1 question came to mind. Where is the Blind Fight feat? From Beren's walkthru, it looked like Blind Fight was an important feat in case an enemy used Power Word: Blind.

 

It can be helpful, but consider the frequency of encounter: How many enemies in the game use Improved Invisibility? Five? It'll probably be faster if you just used an invisibility purge or see invisibility. The feat might be better spent elsewhere.

The hard monsters the guy refers to are most likely fights with very few people, such as the Guardian and the Lost Followers, rather than hard fights that have a mob of enemies, such as the fight against Saablic Tan's party at the start of chapter 5. In such a fight, a fighter's 4 attacks/round often outdamages a mage's 1 cast/round.