Point Buy System: ID2 is not NWN!

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WARNING! The following is definitely a RANT. It is NOT directed at anyone in particular, and is certainly not intended to insult or offend. But, man, this has been getting on my nerves for the past month now.... And don't worry, I'm going to start cutting the Prozacs in half tomorrow....

The point buy system in Icewind Dale 2 is NOT, repeat NOT, the same as the point buy system in Neverwinter Nights! Sure, most of us know this already -- what I don't get is why we ALL don't seem to know this. Mainly, it's an annoyance I've found in several of the various hint guides and books that are out there, and only occasionally on this board. But, for some strange reason, some people seem to insist on giving advice about stat allocation in ID2 as if it used the same point buy system as NWN!

For instance, in NWN, you normally pay one point to go from 8 to 9, 9 to 10, 10 to 11, 11 to 12, 12 to 13, and 13 to 14, but you pay two points to go from 14 to 15 or 15 to 16, and you pay three points to go from 16 to 17 or 17 to 18, etc. But then there are special modifiers to certain particular ability scores for various races. For instance, a half-orc only has to pay one point to go from 14 to 15 or 15 to 16, etc. to raise his strength, but he has to pay two points to go from 12 to 13 or 13 to 14, etc. to raise his intelligence or charisma. This means that the half-orc race is best suited to classes that rely on strength, and worst suited to classes that really on intelligence or charisma, because of the cost modifiers.

This is NOT the way it works in ID2's point buy system for character creation, and I cannot understand how anyone offering advice can miss this point!

Sure, when you first get your stat screen when creating a half-orc in ID2, you have 10s in dex, con, and wis, but you have a 12 in str and 8s in int and cha. However, the point buy system in ID2 works on a straight point-for-point basis, so unlike NWN, going from 17 to 18 in ANY stat, regardless of your race or which stat we are talking about, costs the same as it does to go from 8 to 9 or 9 to 10 --just ONE point. And since you can rearrange the stat points all you want, you can even have a half-orc with a strength of 3 and with 16s in both intelligence and charisma. In other words, over all, the only difference between a half-orc and a human when assigning points in the stat screen is that the half-orc gets two fewer points to apply to his abilities (okay, okay, he can also go up to 20 in str and only up to 16 in int or cha, but you get my point). But remember, when you get your stat point every fourth level, you can raise any stat you like, and even go above the starting racial maximums, so in effect, there are no racial maximums....

I know, I know, you all know this already; but time and time again, I keep seeing posts and hint guides talking about racial stat adjustments in ID2 like this: "Race X makes a great class Y because he gets a bonus to ability Z," or "Race X makes a bad class Y because he gets a penalty to ability Z." FEH?! Look, maybe that statement works if you're talking about some OTHER racial advantage/disadvantage of a character as regards any particular class, but due to the way the point buy system is structured, making such a statement based on an ability score modifier is a bit absurd. In Neverwinter Nights, due to the different system implemented, it definitely DOES make a difference -- but NOT so much in ID2.

For all intents and purposes, shield dwarves, gold dwarves, moon elves, wild elves, rock gnomes, and all halflings all have the EXACT SAME AMOUNT of stat points to allocate to their abilities at character creation as do half-elves and humans. Aasimars and dark elves get 4 more, tielfings 2 more, gray dwarves, deep gnomes and half-orcs get 2 less. The only other difference is how it affects your maximum starting points in some abilities, but again, you can go over racial maximums with the free stat bonus point you get every fourth level.

A half-orc could start out as a wizard with 16 int, or as a sorcerer with 16 cha -- in either case, he can eventually go as high as 23! I'm sure there are plenty of human or half-elven wizards that started off with only a 16 int becuase they saw the value in having some other stats be a little higher at start-up, and just raised int further with their bonus points, etc. This isn't as easily done is NWN, but it is much, much easier to do in ID2! So why is there ANYONE so DENSE as to say that in ID2 certain races are going to be automatically better at certain classes because of an often effectively artificial stat point bonus?

And while we're on the subject of pointing out the bloody obvious, favored classes only impact the game in terms of multiclassing. Just because a half-orc has barbarian as his favored class does not actually make him any better at being a barbarian, it just makes it easier for him to multiclass as one! Again, how can ANYONE miss this?

All I can figure is that some people are offering ID2 advice based on NWN rules, and that's just plain DUMB -- no offense.

Boy, it felt good to finally get that off of my chest! Now I can stop punching the cat....

Rant over. Calm restored. Realizing I need to take some things in life a little less seriously....

 

Quote: So why is there ANYONE so DENSE as to say that in ID2 certain races are going to be automatically better at certain classes because of an often effectively artificial stat point bonus?

Because for example, an Aasimar Sorcerer can start out with 20 CHA, unlike a normal human Sorcerer, which can start out with 'only' 18 max. Sure you can go above the limits initially set for the character, but if we're talking about THE stat for a character, higher is always better. you say move from 16 to 23? I say move from 20 to 27 A Sorcerer with 27 CHA is likely more powerfull than one with 23 CHA. (Providing they have the same variables like stats, items and spells)

Quote: And while we're on the subject of pointing out the bloody obvious, favored classes only impact the game in terms of multiclassing. Just because a half-orc has barbarian as his favored class does not actually make him any better at being a barbarian, it just makes it easier for him to multiclass as one! Again, how can ANYONE miss this?

I don't see your point. I know barbarians don't have to be halforcs, but if you want to multiclass your barbarian, it's better to do so with a halforc, than with a wildelf.

Quote: All I can figure is that some people are offering ID2 advice based on NWN rules, and that's just plain DUMB -- no offense.

I don't know about this. Most advice I see is solid advice for IWD2. Personally, I have played NwN for about 15 minutes, and I know jack about its rules. Anyone giving advice from a NwN point of view, which is basically the wrong advice, will usually be corrected by someone else. (like me )

 

"And since you can rearrange the stat points all you want, you can even have a half-orc with a strength of 3 and with 16s in both intelligence and charisma."

Nope: a half-orc can't start with below 5 strength.

 

My bad!

 

Wow, thank god that someone said this out loud before I went on a Newbie-Bashing spree.
Really, most of what you say is good, apart from what Faragon pointed out.

Nice stuff.
oh..and Welcome

 

Personally, i miss the roll system.. The patients, the Gains, the losses, and then the Ultimate Victory when you got a Damn good role you wanted to keep.. That was the great part..

I personally find the Point buy system a lil cheap anyways.. it enforces the theory of All men Are Created Equal.

We all(meaning most/some) are grown ups. We All(Meaning most/some) know, that not all men are created equal.

Some people are just better off than others. Some people are born with 1 lung, no legs, and a heart problem, and others are born with the physical possibility of becoming an Olympic Swimmer..

Not Everyone Is Created Equal, Give us back our Dice!

 

They won't give us the dice! why? It's simple, the last D&D game were 2E and in 2E you wouldn't get any bonus at all without having an ability score of 15-16 but in 3E a 12 give you a bonus of +1 and having a +1 to an ability is okay. Rolling all stats to max will get you +4 to all stats.

See?

in 2E

Dwarf fighter (with not so "good" stats)

Str: 16 +1 attack
Dex: 15 -1 AC
Con: 14 no modificator
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 9 -1 reaction (I think at least)

So this fine lad will begin the game (without armor and weapon) with a THAC0 of 19, an AC of 9 (11 for 3E fans) 11 Hit point

This same dwarf in 3E with the same stats

Str: 16 +3 attack AND Dommage
Dex: 15 +2 AC
Con: 14 +2 Hit-point AND Fortitude saves
Int: 12 +1
Wis: 10 +0
Cha: 9 -1 To charisma based skill

So angain at level one WITHOUT armor or Weapon will get +4 BBA (THAC0 16 for 2E's fan) an AC of 12 (8 for 2E) and 12 hit-point...

So you see why they use the Point buy system?