George Martin and Death

Perhaps he didnt get rid of them? Finish the book BTA. I also didnt think Frey's reaction was unrealistic. It is a world of honour and glory, Robb had slighted the entire family of Frey, not only had he broken his word but he had done it in a way that that was very insulting to the Frey's and as Walder was a cranky old man with no conscious at all I can well see that he wanted Robb dead.

 

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Robb's dead but Catelyn gets kind of resurrected (she returns as some kind of zombie) at the end of the book.

Personally I found the way GRRM kills off his characters quite refreshing. It really came as a surprise when Oberyn Martell and Gregor Clegane had their fight and the one you expected was going to win ended up getting killed. I never saw that one coming (pity such a great character had to die but I guess you can't win 'em all).

Generally with fantasy novels like this, the main characters are pretty much indestructible. Read a Drizzt book and no matter how many enemies he's facing and no matter how tough those enemies are, you know for a fact that he's going to come out of it pretty much unscathed. It takes away a lot of the thrill if you know the main character can't die.

So when a book comes along in which the main characters can die just as easily as the bit players it's a breath of fresh air.

 

But wouldn't killing Robb Stark put the Freys in great favour with the Lannisters.

Also, the freys have always competed with the Tullys to be the greatest lords of the river lands (like Boltons have with the Starks in the north) and this would be the perfect opportunity to seize that power.

 

It's a year since I read the book but I'm sure that Robb was supposed to marry one of Walder's many grandchildren in return for Walder's aid in the war. So I think it makes perfect sense that Walder would be pretty incensed about this sort of thing and plot to have Robb killed. After all, people fought duels to the death in the Dark Ages over supposed insults so it doesn't strike me as farfetched - particularly in light of the fact that Robb was losing the war and Walder stood to gain a lot more from killing him (by way of the Lannisters' generosity to their allies) then he did by siding with Robb.

Not every hero has to die a hero's death.

99% of the time when some heroic, leader-type figure dies it's because they're outnumbered 1,000 to 1 and they die saving a city from destruction or something equally farfetched.

I think it keeps the surprise value going by knowing that not every character is going to make it to the final book in one piece.

 

I always had the impression that Walder Frey didn't give a damn about honour. And then there's the fact that he's very, very old and so probably a little senile into the bargain. To him it might have seemed like a perfectly reasonable action.

 

Walder Frey is a cruel, vindictive old man who expects everyone to grovel at his feet. The Starks had begged for his help and then insulted him by reneging on the promise to make one of his daughters a Queen, which had been a very important goal for him. I didn't find the Bloody Wedding out of character or implausible at all. Verisimilitude was also added by the fact that other Freys at the wedding were so stressed and anxious - it would have been hard for me to swallow the idea that *all* of the Freys were so evil, but that they were ruled by an awful old tyrant who could lead them into this, yes, it did "work" for me.

Incidently, GRRM said he had to write this chapter last because it was so traumatic for him. The rest of the book was long finished before he finally sat down and wrote it, then cried like a baby. I thought that was such a sweet story. William Goldman reports something similar about when he was writing the Princess Bride- he had to stop and stare at the paper, rub his eyes, then he screamed, "Bill, you bastard, you killed Wesley!"

 

BTA, you are right about these signs. I think Martin wanted to create an atmosphere of uncertainity, because the reader does not expect that he is going to kill two of his most charismatic charakters.

About Robb wedding Jeyne Westerling, there is a simple explanation: He did not possibly watn to father a bastard, so he wed her.

 

I have to weigh in here and say that it didn't seem forced to me at all. IIRC, the Lannisters were made aware of the plan to kill Robb. It was all part of the plot -- while I don't have the book handy right now, I believe that the Lannisters sweetened the pot by offering Frey money and other considerations. Frey did not get where he is by acting honourably. I liked the way it was handled, personally, especially the resurrection of Catelyn and Arya's near reunion / death at the castle.

 

Now, I understand you, BTA.

Certainly, Martin wanted to kill Robb, because he wanted add to the depressing feeling his books are transporting. But the storyline is IMHO not weak.

 

Wow, finally an interesting thread.

Imho you forget one thing about Robb, BTA. He's the son of Eddard Stark, who was famous about his honor. In fact, his honour killed him, when he wanted to give the throne to Stannis after Robert's death. In "A Game of Thrones" Littlefinger says a very important thing about Ned:
"You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move."

Ned's rigid honour is a weakness, just as the honour of Robb. Robb must wed Jeyne after he beds her, because his honour dictates this. On the other hand, not Robb, but Catelyn made the wedding proposal to the Freys. So it's clear, that Jeyne is more important for Robb's honour after what happened between them, than Catelyn's promise.

As for the wedding and foreshadowings, I think that was absolutley intended. The whole scene is very theatrical (in the good meaning), I almost felt that I'm watching a more horroristic play of Shakespeare.

 

I liked the fact that some major things happen "off-screen" as it were. It adds to the suspense for me.

 

I agree with BTA about Robb's wedding. Of course, we have to remember that Jeyne is actually still alive -- and may have a part yet to play in future books of the series.

As for Frey being willing to kill Robb... well, BTA, I think you've forgotten Frey's nature -- he's been built up from the first book as a cold petty schemer, always trying to play both sides of every conflict. In this case, with one side insulting him multiple times and the other offering a sweet deal, it's no surprise he should actually pick a camp this time.

While Robb's insult was the spur to his death at the hands of the Freys, it should be kept in mind that the Late Lord Frey was always ready to switch to whichever side seemed to offer the greatest advantage for the least personal risk.

I do however understand your frustration with the lack of story surrounding Robb and Jeyne. Perhaps someone should ask George why he left that out -- time or length restraints? Or was it deliberately left fuzzy because he wants to unveil more surprises about it later? Or because it was simply a contrivance and only tangentially important to the storyline? Nothing we'll be able to answer until the sequels appear, I'm sure.

Incidentally, Martin seems fond of betrayals as a way of killing off his main characters.

On a more general note, I loved the first two books of this series. I was shocked when he killed off Ned (the first main character to die, IIRC), but somehow it drew me in to the story more. The third novel, though, has left me a little unsettled. Most of my interest (like many other readers) was invested in the Starks, who seem now to be dropping like flies. It's getting decidedly more difficult to figure out who the conflict centers around -- which is interesting; after all, we all like mystery -- but I would like *something* to anchor to, and my central figures have this annoying habit of DYING! I was extraordinarily glad for the last chapter -- Dondarrion's vendetta against the Freys, may he kill every last bloody one of them.

At any rate, I'm still holding up hopes for this being the best fantasy series ever, but we shall see.