question about monks

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Trying a monk out. Got to 3rd level and wanted to take weapon finesse with unarmed strikes. Game will only allow me to take weapon finesse with daggers. Anyone else have this happen? Any ideas how to fix?

 

Yep! It's not possible to take weapon finesse on unarmed attacks. I don't know if this is a bug. Just to think a fist-fight based on dexterity, it would look like some karate practice or something. A lot of yelling and swaying and jumping, but nothing happens. When you hit, hit hard, with strenght.

 

What?!? It was possible to take weapon finesse with unarmed strike in the original, unpatched version. Did this get mangled in the patch?!?

I've just started a game with three monks...this could be very bad news indeed...

 

I do have unpatched version and I didn't get to choose finesse.

 

you get udarmed stike as an automatic for a monk i think

 

Well, I know it's an old topic, and I've only gone back to the forums of late, and only recently bought ToEE. Seriously

As for the monk being able to weapon finesse with fists:
1) no it is not a bug;
2) some people in house rules playing ad&d in real life, the dm allows players to do it for something different; and
3) if you go to a phb or a dmg, even a 3rd ed, you are specifically not allowed to weapon finesse with fists or unarmed attacks.

Weapon finesse is simply for light weapon attacks, where a light weapon in the core rules is:
1) a dagger;
2) a rapier;
3) a scimitar;
4) a spiked chain(which is an exotic weapon); and
5) any weapon that is one size category smaller or greater, than your character.

Hence majority of humanoids, ie humans, elves, half-elves, half-orcs and dwarves are all medium, and thus any weapon that is tiny or small can be weapon finessed. For gnomes and halflings, obviously theyre resticted even more, and could only ever weapon finesse something like a dagger. Of course for something like giants, which are large, well they could weapon finesse long swords

Hope that helps any, probably not cos it probably got settled ages ago

 

@Jechor:
If you read the feat descriptions in the PHB carefully you'll notice the passage that reads: "Natural weapons are always considered light weapons."

Also, the description for the monk class states that the monk's unarmed strike is considered both a manufactured and a natural weapon for the application of game mechanics.


So, yes, it's a bug. I can remember finessing one of my ToEE-monk's hands. I'll go have a look.

 

Well, that all depends on which phb you're looking at. But of course if Wizard's changed the rules dramatically on weapon finesses from 3 to 3.5 ed, then yes you'd be right. But certainly under 3.0, that is incorrect, thus if the game is not using all 3.5 rules or did not adopt all 3.5 rules, then it is simply not a bug OR the code to actually write and check for:
if player = monk, then add to weapon finesse type fists
else weapon finesse <> fists.

Personally, I would be thinking that they were using 3.0 rules for weapon finesse, because to code what could theoretically only be 2-3 lines of code, would have so slowed the gameplay down, even a once off so much, that it wouldn't be funny, as the check would need to be made too often, and a variable weapon finesse fist=1 or 0, would have to be added into every character that gets created and also the check would have to be made at every level up. Then what happens if you stopped levelling monk and started another class part way through to the end ? Then the check has to be made to allow that the previous class was a monk.

All in all:
1) it should be understood 3.5 is a revision, and yes I'll admit after just digging up a 3.5 book I never ever use, cos we're still playing 3.0 and still learning the rules after a few years playing 3.0 now. So I apologise if I've indicated you were wrong; and
2) Well, overall, using all rules as they stand in 3.0 or 3.5 or whatever edition, really is theoretically impossible.

Overall, though I would if I was dm-ing even under 3.5 rules, and if I was following the rules, I doubt I'd allow a monk's fists to be considered light weapons, even though fists are tiny weapons, thus light weapons, because simply, a monk doesn't have to use their fists as their method of attack, and I honestly, could never rule a knee, leg or foot was a light weapon, and for a standard medium sized humanoid, and even for the halflings and gnomes, honestly it's unrealistic.

Really, I wouldn't rule it as a bug, if it was they would have patched it. If it was there in unpatched versions, then maybe that was why they had to patch it, cos it slowed gameplay down too much, and I know I'd prefer no slowness in gameplay over very very tweaked rules, and it is only minor.

Oh, one thing I did forget of course, and it's quite obvious under 3.0 rules, why the monk wasn't allowed to weapon finesse fists. Simply cos overall, it would make the monk even more than fighter with all it's bonus feats, the most powerful class of all. Simply for the following reason, and I would not be surprised if it's computer roleplaying game mechanics and reasons either.....
Imagine the points buy system in ToEE as it stands, and without being ridiculously harsh on stats you don't need, given the -stat penalties you suffer under 3rd ed:
Str:8
Dex:18
Con:12
Int:8
Wis:13
Cha:8
Reason for these:
If you're weapon finessing you don't need Str.
Dex for ac and finessing.
Con to just give you the tiniest edge on hp, you could drop con to 10 and theoretically increase Wis or something else, plus con gives you the extra fort save.
Int don't need it, you can get away with it, especially if you worked simply on tumble, and two other important skills.
Wis for the ac bonus of +1, and to possibly up that at level 4, to make it +2, and also for saves, a monk can never have enough saves.
Cha, see int.

Of course a race hasn't been selected, so you could even up Dex more theoretically or anything else, to get more ac.

Overall, those stats + weapon finesse, is why a monk would become extremely overpowered, sure you won't do xdy+str bonus in lots of damage, but given the number of times you hit, your ac bonus, and basically rolling str and dex into one for hitting power. It is overall kind of insane, you have to admit.

Good enough reason for me, to think perhaps monks might not be allowed weapon finesse fists in ToEE, besides, give a monk exotic weapon proficiency, along with weapon finesse-spiked chain or weapon finesse-any light weapon that a monk can use, and you take the advantage of low str and tons of dex to go weapon finessing with unarmed attacks away. Not only would your monk have the insane 10 ft reach, but multiple attacks as you go up, etc

Who could ask for more ?

Anyway, enough said I think.

[ April 19, 2005, 17:42: Message edited by: Jechor ]