Abortion

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Nice ridiculous question C'Jakob.

Abortion should be an option, as long as it isn't abused. I agree with Sir Bel; only abortion as contraception seems wrong to me.

 

Abortion is murder.
Women have choices. They can choose to not have sex. They can choose to use birth control. Murdering an unborn child should not be one of the options.
As far as rape or incest. I don't see how following a crime/tragedy with a murder makes things better.

[ December 03, 2002, 22:54: Message edited by: Jack Funk ]

 

Myself? I'm a roman Catholic. I believe in God and Jesus and all that, but that doesn't stop me from believing that the whole "no birth control" thing is rubbish.

Personally, I'm pro-choice. I have heard in various circles "How would you like it if YOU had been an abortion." I sometimes (depending on how obnoxious my opponent is) reply with "I wouldn't care. I wouldn't care about that or anything, because my mind would never have begun working. My mind would never have existed. I would never have been alive."

I mean no offense or disrespect to believers in the "life begins at conception" idea, but to me, there is a difference between existance and life. My cat exists. But he doesn't "think", at least not in the conventional sense. Think about it. Very young babies merely wiggle and cry. At about two, (give or take a few months) we start moving around. We begin learning. By my way of thinking, (which, again, I'm not saying is right, it's just the way my mind works) life doesn't begin until the second year. Before that, we merely exist.

This is controversial, might make people stop liking me, and might make me idiot of the week, but It's what I think, and I stand by it.

 

Honestly, I don't think men should have a say in the matter of rape and incest. That's an incredibly traumitizing experience for a woman, but she wasn't responsible for it - someone else was. If she views this as murder, then she obviously shouldn't be doing it. If not, then she should go through with it as she feels. Regardless, I can't say there is much of any good that comes from abortion - sometimes it seems like a necessary evil in our society.

Why? Well, for one thing, if giving birth had any chance to kill the woman and the baby, abortion is probably the best choice. Secondly, making abortion illegal is absolutely ridiculous - women will resort coat hangers and vacuum cleaners. That's incredibly unsafe and deadly. Thirdly, the idea of intoxication (perhaps), rape, etc. doesn't make the woman responsible. Otherwise - she is (barring senlitiy or mental retardation, of course).

Is abortion murder? Some say yes - a heart starts beating in 18 days. Others say no - it's pretty much a parasite on the woman - totally dependent on her. Her choice anyways. Regardless, it's the couple's choice (assuming there is a couple). But most of the time, a woman gets an abortion out of convenience.

If you get knocked up, your own fault. Take responsibility.

(I apologize for using that phrase, but it's not half as clumsy as "impregnated".

 

Mankind is a parasite

True, sometimes, for the excistance of good, evil is neccesary, and the other way around

[ December 03, 2002, 23:22: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Abortion should be an option, there are many many times where a child is unwanted and I for one think it is better to take it away before it is human than to let it live unwanted.
But it is a horrible choice and should obviously not be taken lightly. I know quite a few persons that have had abortions and it is a tremendous pressure and a terrible decision but sometimes it is for the better if the child is never born. All the anti-freedom people do is to put even more guilt upon the shoulders of those poor girls. No wonder you have heard so many that claims to regret it or other cry story, you with your judgmental attitude makes their already heavy burden unbearable.
But I cannot understand all these methods that have been mentioned in this thread, if that is how abortion is done in the US I can almost understand that they have so many anti-freedom people there. Six month is way too late imo, it is possible to give birth at that time and for the child to live and have a normal life. I dont claim to know when life begins but an abortion shouldnt be possible to consider if the fetus is a child that could be made to live outside the uteros (spelling).
Abortion should be completely free, for everyone and to them that thinks that people will use is contraceptive think again. As I have said it is a horrible decision and no one take it lightly, and if there is anyone it is such a troubled person that they have other great problems with their mind. It should of course be limited to pretty early in the pregnancy so that what the abortion basicly is is to scrape off some goo from the uteros wall. Later abortions should be limited to the cases where birth would pose lethal danger to both mother and child.
I would also like to say that I find the so called 'pro-life' people's scare argumentation to be despicable. Even quite sensible people seem to be able to stoop very low in this question to scare and terrorise people straight with horror stories and an extensive use of words like murder, holocaust, childrenskiller etc.

 

Say what you want about "the so called 'pro-life' people's scare argumentation". I believe in a soul. I believe that the soul enters the body at conception. I believe that killing a being with a soul in anything other than self defense is murder.
If this seems unreasonable to some people, there is nothing I can do for you. I will not change my mind about this.
Abortion is (primarily) a convenience for people who don't want to take responsibility for themselves. You can throw the incest/rape argument around all you want. Most abortions are done as a means of birth control.

 

I wrote a short essay supporting my belief that abortion is wrong, last year, a belief that I hold to.

Laches, we have no qualms about killing pigs and plants because we eat them afterwards, they fulfill a purpose of sorts. The only purpose some fetuses serve after being killed is to be used in some scientists' experiments.

Sir Bel,

What about a new born infant? It's only taken a single breath of life outside the womb, does that count as an experience?

Atreides,

What's so special about the sixth month? The fact that it's been a fetus for six months? A fetus is a fetus, it doesn't matter which stage of development it's in, it has the same DNA as it did when it was conceived, it has the same DNA as when it will die. Just because it's a little more developed than it was before doesn't mean that it's any more human. It has always been human, it will always be human.
Also, killing a baby because the woman has been raped is not a good reason. Yes, I realize that the emotional pain must be almost beyond compare, but is that a good reason to murder a human being?

C'Jakob,

I'm sorry if I offend you by saying this, but I find that to be the most cowardly of all stances in this issue. For example, if you saw someone stabbing someone else in the chest, would you walk past and say that it's the man's choice to kill the other person? That it's not your place to defend the other person's life because it has nothing to do with "your body?"

I find it odd that only the women are considered in these arguments, what about the fathers? I'm sure there are those who push for their girlfriends/fiancees/wives to have abortions, but what about those who are deprived of the chance of having children.

Please don't think of me as one of those anti-everything Christians, or of one of those people who argues against things I know nothing about, because I have done some research into abortion, especially the moral and ethical issues related to abortion.

When I was researching for my essay last year, I came across a website, prochoiceconnection.com, in which the Bible was being used to defend abortion. I read through each of the passages listed, and the reasons they supposedly supported abortion, and I wrote to the woman who ran the website (I don't recall her name, but I do remember that she supposedly had a Ph.D) explaining to her how the passages actually went against abortion. She wrote back without any real argument, she just told me that some biblical scholars agreed on the interpretation she presented (I should say that when I looked up the passages in my Bible, the wording was different than that which she had put on her website) and she concluded her e-mail by calling me some extremely offensive names but she did not produce any arguments to combat what I had said. Odd how someone apparently so prominent among pro-abortionists can't take a firm stand against an argument.

 

I think that it is something horrible being done, yes murder is perhaps the best word. But there are always two sides to any case. I think abortion shouldn't be allowed unless the mother is in physical danger by being pregnant. The fact quite often overlooked is that having an abortion can be just as traumatising as not having an abortion. I don't know if it was a dutch or an internatiol survey, but a few months ago I read in a newspaper that women who did have an abortion done had a far greater chance of becoming depressed and a greater chance of getting cancer in ovuaries (i believe is the word).

So abortion isn't just something you do. It has far reaching consequences even if you do not believe in God or anything.

But the most important fact that a lot of christian people forget is that Christ preached love for our fellow humans. So instead of shouting Abortion Bad. Go out and help those girls in need!

 

Unfortunately, Joacqin, there are unpleasant and insensitive people on both sides of the debate. I certainly can't defend the behaviour of a lot of pro-life people, and I'm sorry that their unkindness and aggression have made me almost embarrassed to admit I'm pro-life too. All I can say is, we're not all like that. But "pro-choice" people are often just as bad. Although at least they don't go around shooting people, their attitude is often very unhelpful. A girl is pregnant, poor, frightened, unhappy? Have an abortion, it'll cure everything! The truth is that usually, if a woman wants to have her unborn child torn from her body, something has gone terribly wrong with her life, and if the baby's father, her family, the community, churches, charities would only take a little trouble to reach out and help her, then a baby becomes a joy and not a problem. And then everyone, especially the poor mother and child, is spared the horror of abortion.

 

Faerus,

just to clarify something -- when I note that we have no qualms about killing a pig, or about killing a tree when we cut it down, here is my purpose: to show there is no necessary connection between the right to life and the mere fact that something is alive.

Likewise, when I note that we would have qualms about killing Yoda it isn't because I'm trying to get people to think Yoda is a great guy, it is to show that there is no necessary connection between being human and the right to life.

Why do I think this is important? It seems to me that science might be able to define when life begins or when human life begins, potentially. I think it is likely to always be debatable but removed from the political and ethical tempest created by abortion the scientific community might well come to an agreement on when life begins.

Since I think there is no necessary connection between life or human life and the right to life for the examples given above though I think that science will not help us answer the question of when the right to life attaches.

Pursuing a scientific justification then is a waste of time in my opinion because the question is a philosophical one not a scientific one. Arguing about brain waves or heart beats etc. doesn't get to the core issue.

I think you might have misinterpreted my intent.

I also disagree a bit about why we don't feel qualms with killing other things. We have no qualms about killing a roach in the middle of nowhere either. It is because we perceive it as lacking worth, not having the right to life, not because killing it achieves some purpose.

The question is when does the right to life attach.

So far I've seen variation of the old favorite: "the slut deserves it" argument. I've also seen religious beliefs. I've also seen people simply assert that it is murder. I'm curious to see what else pops up.

Also Faerus, attributing the response of one woman on the internet as representative of all pro-choicers is akin to a pro-choicer attributing the views of those who murder doctors to all pro-lifers.

[ December 04, 2002, 00:57: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

Of course there are always rotten eggs on both sides in a case.
I believe in the option, of course something has gone horrible wrong if someone considers an abortion and taking away the child wont fix everything but what it will do is to enable the woman doing the abortion a possibility to straighten out her life to get an education and settle down and build a nest so that the children that are wanted will have all that they may need. Instead of delivering the child unwanted and to parents unable to take care of it, both practically and emotionally.
It is up to the person bearing the child, if she believes that abortion is wrong or that she can take of the child she will bear but if she knows that she wont be able to take of the child then I think she should have the option of removing it under controlled forms.
I personally prefer it being done properly in a clinic by doctors than by alone in a toilet with a fork or some questionable drugs.
And all you people putting religious values to this be free to do so but you cannot enforce them on others, just because you believe in a soul doesnt mean that everyone else does.

 

Up until fairly recently, I have tended toward the pro-choice argument, simply because of that rape thing. However, we need to, as Laches said, look at the big picture now and save the exceptions for later.

I'll probably be accused of straddling both sides of the fence here, but that's okay. While I am a firm believer that humans should be made to be responsible for their actions, however foolish, I do recognise that abortion is certainly necessary in our society.

It should certainly not be used as a contraceptive, there are plenty of other options available (especially abstinence, which is completely fool-proof). However, if the pregnancy would jeopardize both the mother and her child, an abortion would likely be the best option. After all, which would make a greater stain on the conscience, killing an unborn child that likely would not survive either way or (indirectly) killing two humans?

Math, you make a good point, and this procedure is basically doctor-assisted murder and should be totally banned in our nation. Regardless of when scientists say life begins, the child is born, it is alive. There can be no valid argument on this.

While I tend to agree with the rest of your statements 8people, those I do not. In both of those circumstances, the person needs to be held responsible for their decisions, not offered a post-conception method of birth control. While I agree that the conditions in orphanages and adoption institutions tend to be subpar, it is still better than it being dead (or not existing, whichever opinion you may hold).

C'Jakob, why do you not believe that the father should have a say as well? He will have to support and nurture the child as well as the mother will. While he may not have the pain of birth control, I believe that the couple should have the decision, not simply the female.

 

Damn, it seems I've ticked off Faerus and Rastor here.

Faerus, I was being mildly sarcastic there. I was trying to make the point that the idea that you can kill your unborn child because it's in your body is ridiculous. We're in the same boat here, Faerus. I think that it's ridiculous that a person should let someone else do something morally wrong because s/he can.

Rastor, when a woman gets an abortion, most of the time it's a one-night stand. She gets impregnated by some guy she met in a bar whose last name she doesn't even know, and the guy just ditches her after the sex. Or, after the male finds out his girlfriend/fiancee/(even) wife is pregnant, he leaves her alone. Often, the woman is left alone with the choice. Granted, the man should have an equal say in it too. But more often than not, the woman's left alone with a scarred reputation; the man is basically unscathed.

I agree that it is the couple's choice. The matter is that usually there won't be one. And I really do not believe that the man should have a word of say in the situation of rape or incest.

[ December 04, 2002, 03:20: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

 

I asked this question earlier in the day and I'll ask it again only this time more directly: Faerus have you ever met a rape victim? A woman who has been raped will always live with the pain of that terrible event in her life and *never* be free of it. To force her to give birth to a child that was caused by that rape is inexcusable and cruel. I once had a debate with a group of classmates in a speech class my second year in college and I brought up this same issue in regards to abortion. Someone had the nerve to actually imply that having a child that is the result of a rape could "turn a terrible thing in to a good thing." I've said this once to that person and I'll say it to anyone else: *nothing* good comes from a rape, nothing.
To answer the six months thing I'll point out that's more the partial-birth abortion thing I have a problem with rather than a length of time. My definition of a human life beginning is when that baby is born in to the world and the proceedure that I've read described earlier (about the birthing the baby 90% and killing it like that) is something that I generally find a bit revolting. However, unless that baby is born I see it is just so much material, a collection of cells and half-formed organs and no perception of what is going on around it. I know that sounds a bit cruel to some of you guys but it's my opinion however cold it may seem.

 

Rastor, I agree with most of your statements but I'm with C'Jakob on this one. Hope you don't feel ganged-up-upon. If the father of the baby shows any interest whatsoever in providing care and support of the baby, it is extremely unusual for the mother to choose abortion. Usually the abortion is his idea, or done in the hopes of winning him back, or prompted by economic factors his presence in the equation would mostly resolve.

Having said that, the pro-life agency where we worked had a shelter where the girls could live and finish their education if they wanted. Once, just once, we had a teenage boy living there. We helped him persuade his girlfriend he'd be a good father (and on-staff nurses were there to ensure this, for the girls as well), and we gave him all the gifts and help we'd have given to the mother if she'd wanted them, and he and the baby moved in to the shelter. Boy was HE popular! What a guy. I totally take off my hat to him.

 

C'Jakob, you toss out an interesting statistic - that most abortions are due to one-night stands. Can you point me in the direction of the raw data supporting that assertion, please?

In such cases, you are correct in saying that the woman bears responsibility for the decision alone. However, in all cases where the father is known, he shares responsibility. I'm sure it's often not the equal division that is should be, but the responsibility is there and anyone deserving of being called a MAN will shoulder it. Kudos to the teen that Sprite knew!

If anyone really believes that this is entirely a women's issue, go buy a one-way ticket to Nigeria. I hear that women can still get pregnant on their own over there.

 

How many miles is Nigeria from Georgia?

 

I am not a Roman Catholic. Yikes, you REALLY scared me. I have no faith right now, anyway. Pro-choice for me.

Eze

 

What would you think of a mother who comes up to you, puts a gun to your head and sais: Sorry, you were not ment to be. Poof!

Who are we to decide what's worthy to live?
I stated it before: The human kind is the most intelligent species in the universe and we use our knowledge to our own destruction.

You want to have good sex, but you are too stupid to use a condom? Suffer the consequences. You created life, now you want it dead... What do you want?

Of course, there are some difficult cases.
People dont want to be raped, but still you have to respect life.

Could go on for ever....
My head is spinning with thoughts I'm not able to express.