Religious discussion continued

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"God is good. That's not just an adjective. God is goodness and all of the subcatergories of good like love, beauty, truth, etc. When you reject goodness/God and do what is wrong, you are exiling yourself from God. Total, complete, permanent separation from God is what Hell is."

huh? God is goodness it self? I doubt it, goodness is a personality, if it is so, God is praticaly just a feeling of our's, not a being as the bible make it out to be. Besides, how can you call someone who floods the earth killing almost everything and number of other bloody things "good"?

and anyways, the bible says is all-can-do, then why did he really need to force 10 disasters on egypt to force them to let the israelis go, when he could just teleport the israelis to israel? Why did he even CREATE humans when he could just see to the future and see how evil they've become?

[ September 24, 2002, 19:28: Message edited by: Ray192 ]

 

No, goodness is not a feeling.

As for teleporting people around the planet, who am I to know why he sent plagues. Perhaps they led more of the people to reform their lives than a simple disappearance would have.

And as for the flood, death is not always evil, and because God allows it or causes it does not mean he is evil.

And yes, he knew the future and what mankind would become. We're not evil. We can be sanctified.

 

first off this is not truely a discussion about religions this is a christian vs atheist and agnostic.
Now I'm an agnostic. I say show it to me and I'll believe it. And when I say show it to me I don't mean a book. there are planty of inconsistencies in the bible, but there are inconsistencies everywhere. The Bible of today is not the bible as it was written. It's been corrupted by the church. Now if christianity is right that means the other 70% of the world is wrong because only about 30% of the worlds population is christian. The christian faith tells us that if we don't believe in the christian god we're going to hell, so in that means that 70% of the earths population is going to hell? I'm sorry but that makes no sense. Oh and I hate to burst your lil christian bubble but contrary to popular belief christianity is not monotheistic its polytheistic. The Devil is pretty much an evil god and angels and demons are lesser gods. Christianity calls Jesus the son of god, wouldn't that make him a god? If christianity was introduced to a catholic with simple name changes he'd call it a pagan polytheistic religion. So don't get all holier than though. respect everyones beliefs and accept them for what they are, beliefs.

 

Shralp: On one hand you're claiming some of this stuff is condescending, and on the other you've said that what we say is unimportant.

You've accused us of calling the Christians "stupid" because they stick up for what they believe in. I haven't. I have certainly suggested that some of the arguments put forward are illogical, due to some of the obvious fallacies they contain. I haven't personally attacked the authors of the arguments, though. I'm not out to make anyone look small or silly, here. I just want someone to put a convincing, coherent argument for the existence of god forward.

You say that these posts suggest that the Christians treat their fellow humans better, and that this is, itself, some sort of convincing argument for the existence of god. Well, firstly I disagree that we've done much mistreating, here. I see it rather the other way around. People have been demanding I believe, but they have been offering poor, inconsistent, or illogical arguments as to why. Surely I'm at least entitled to a valid explanation? Secondly, even if the Christians DID treat their fellow humans better, it wouldn't prove that an all powerful being existed. Why do you think it would?

Everyone: As for the Judas argument, let's leave it where it is for now. I agree with some of the points put forward. He may have been a nasty man. That I've taken his name may offend some... I guess when I chose the name I didn't count on such a forceful reaction. For a version of "his side of the story", check out the play JCS. I guess it's a good example of a "film noir" (no, not you nior, even if that's what MotherT calls you) based on the story. I'm not claiming it's biblically accurate... but then, we're talking about a book that was dodgy to start with, and only got worse when the church started to moderate it.

BTA: Thanks for setting that straight - you saved me the trouble.

Headbanger: Just because something is unique, it doesn't mean that the message it put's foward is true. That Christianity holds promises that other religions don't doesn't prove that God exists. It doesn't even suggest it.

I'm not seeing this as a problem. Would you like to be sent to jail with no proof that you ever did anything wrong? Even if the entire jury BELIEVES you you did?

The theory of evolution is not vague... it is quite developed, and complete. But as I said, I'm not trying to convert anyone to science, here. However, even if the theory of evolution WAS vague, that's not any kind of argument that god exists, and created the earth, is it now? There could just as easily be another alternative that doesn't involve a god.

Have some respect for your own powers of reasoning. The human race is capable of fathoming some pretty amazing stuff. I don't think I'd find it hard to understand that there WAS ACTUALLY A GOD if there was something credible that suggested it.

[ September 25, 2002, 00:28: Message edited by: Judas ]

 

Shadow Assassin: Poly vs. Monotheism is hardly the big picture here. The bubble remains intact.

This thread has been filled with questions and answers. Judas has asked questions, and others have had answers, albeit not to Judas' satisfaction, but answers are answers nonetheless.
So I don't think anyone is getting "holier than thou." Everyone is expressing their interpretations to the best of their knowledge.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't mean that they're being disrespectful. What is a debate without opposition.

Judas, Christians believe what they believe out of faith. Faith simply doesn't seem to be enough for some people, and that just can't be helped. That is why miracles were performed. To show physical proof. Those miracles are just not seen anymore in the way of spectacular and obvious events. I have been partial to religious "miracles" myself. Those are what help me to believe.

Noone is saying that the bible is a perfect translation. No language can be perfectly translated into any other language. If you want to investigate the authenticity of the bible, search for some archaelogical texts.
Here is one link that might be helpful.
http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html

You ask for physical proof that God exists. I can't offer you any other physical proof. But if you truly wish to find out the answer to your questions, maybe you will get your answer in a way that helps you to understand.

[ September 24, 2002, 23:22: Message edited by: Xenecor ]

 

I think I am beginning to grasp Big B's point (about the free will argument). Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is basically that:

The ONLY way you will be sent to hell for eternity is if you completely turn away from God, correct? If you sin, you will still be forgiven and go to heaven as long as you accept God, correct? So if you have free will you can choose whether or not you want to do this, if you choose not to, you're not going to heaven. That kinda clears it up a little bit.

Now, what about all the people who, as Mother T said, did not have the opportunity to know about God, and were basically good people?

Headbanger: I think you misinterpreted my post concerning the Judas bit. The Judas that posts on these boards made an argument that the Judas from the bible was in a "me or him" situation and betrayed Jesus because Jesus would have led to his, and his other followers, death. I was just asking him to provide support for that argument.

Response to Headbanger's other post:
I don't believe in Purgatory, or most of the other teachings of the Catholic Church. I saw a movie called stigmata, in which there was a discovery of a "lost testament of Christ, which was Jesus' instructions on how to continue his church after his death".
In this lost testament Jesus told his followers "The Kingdom of God inside you and all around you. Not in buildings of wood or stone."

They claimed at the end that, although the story in the movie was fiction, these lost testaments did in fact exist, and were discovered in a Cave in Nag Hamani (near where they found the Dead Sea scrolls) in 1954. It was also known as the Gospel of St. Thomas.

Anyway, that kind of mirrored my belief, that the Catholic Church puts too many rules and restrictions on your relationship with God, and on salvation. You had your venerial sins, your moral sins, your purgatory, your restrictions on eating meat on Fridays (which during the fifties or sixties was limited to Lent), etc, etc.

I don't want someone telling me how to define my relationship with God, or to say you need to do this at this time, you need to do that on this day, you can't do that on these days. I was raised a Catholic, and turned away from it because of these unweildy restrictions.
IF I believe, it should be fairly simple, and I should LOVE God, and be happy and joyful about the relationship, not be afraid of him, or worried that I did or didn't do something.

Blackthorne: Feel free to add your $.02! Evolution has always seemed kind of strange to me, but maybe I do not fully understand the concept. For example, how can a creature suddenly spout deformations that enable it to survive better (such as a long middle finger that allows it to reach into cracks and search for food)? Wouldn't the species die out before they all had a chance to grow thier fingers long enough? Evolution is a "survival process" that take place over thousands or millions of years. If I'm being attacked by predators, I can't just spout wings one day and fly to get away from them. It would take a really long time to grow these wings, or this long finger, or whatever, and if I depended on them for survival, I'd be dead long before I grew them. I do agree that species change over really long period of time but it seems kind of strange to me that this would enable them to survive (given the length of time involved).

Judas, I agree that if you believe something you should be able to defend it in a rational and logical way. I do not and will not blindly follow anything, I am an intelligent person, and am capable (most of the time!) of rational thought.

[ September 24, 2002, 23:45: Message edited by: Nutrimat ]

 

"He knows what path we will take, but that is not the same as saying “He makes us take that path.” He makes us do nothing. He just knows the outcome."

But if he already knows the outcome, and he already knows who will be saved and who will be damned, who will accept him and who will reject him, as you say, and he can´t be wrong, then we still have no free will. The people whom he knows will be saved *will* be saved, and the people whom he knows will be damned *will* be damned. Neither has a say in it. Neither has any real choice. There is no choice. God can´t be wrong. If he *knows* beforehand that you will "reject him" and be sent to everlasting hell, you *will*. There is nothing you can actually do about it. You have no real choice. If God does indeed know the outcome, then you have no free will. he argument that free will is given to us by God is thus invalid. The very existence of God denies its possibility.

If God already knew, beforehand, and with no chance of being wrong about it, that Judas would betray Christ, could Judas still have chosen not to do it?

 

I think Mother T's first post in this thread is a beauty. Its a topic which I've always been mystified about. How are those people undeserving of "salvation?"

This is not an attack or whatever, I just wish that someone will answer Mother T's first post...

 

It's easy to claim, that god is responsible for all evil. If god is responsible, you can make a lot of evil things and say it's gods fault.
It's easy to quote the Bible, one can use it as an instrument to stop talking, stop thinking.
Hell can be this world, it depends on the people living in this world.

 

My discussion is based on the Christian religion (although may apply to others).

A substancial part of the Christian religion is faith. Faith is defined as "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

The Bible is part of the Christian religion and as such is subject to faith in its acceptance (to a point, in that one should question its validity in terms of how it has been translated / altered).

To simply say "I will not believe unless you prove it to me" cuts out the line of debate on religion.

I think that for the purposes of the discussion on religion, it is pointless to say that I will not believe without proof / logical evidence because that is what Faith is about which is prevelant in most religions with a god.

Instead I feel that the particulars of a religion should be debated. I think for the purposes of discussion, it is also necessary to put more definition behind what we mean by a phrase such as "free will" (I do think that Hermit09 defined this beautifully).

I personally think that "free will" is merely an illusion as everything is predetermined. That being, I do think it is an illusion that is of utmost importance. What are the consequences if we are resigned to our fate?

[ September 25, 2002, 01:33: Message edited by: Mother T ]

 

Mother T... yes, it cuts it short there. By your definition, it impossible to prove faith. I've been waiting for someone to put that forward, rather than attempting to actually provide proof. Thankyou.

You realise, of course, that by definition, faith can't actually rest on something such as the bible, if the bible is at all accurate. You can't have faith and facts at the same time. If the bible is accurate, is material, and is telling you god exists, you can't have faith in god... only knowledge. Does knowledge of god still get you into heaven, or does it HAVE to be faith?

Can you tell me what the difference between a "faithful position" and a "baseless position" is? Interesting that the word "faith" has a positive connotation, and the word "baseless" a negative one, no?

You feel the particulars of the religions should be debated? To what end?

Yes... the topic of free will is a difficult one, isn't it? If I'm purely physical, surely the laws of physics and biology can explain my every action. Let's say, then, that my body is purely mechanical / biological, but my soul provides free will. What is my soul made of? Does it have mechanics or laws that can explain how it will behave? Does my soul have a soul? A sort of meta-soul, so to speak? How is it constructed? How about the soul of a soul of a soul... etc? I'm not totally decided on the topic of determination yet (I don't have enough proof). But I agree, if everything is determined, free will is still a critical illusion. If you truly believed everything was determined, you wouldn't function properly, wouldn't be able to make decisions, etc. There would be no such thing as a bad or wrong choice, just THE choice (which isn't ACTUALLY a choice, now, is it?).

More from me some other time.

[ September 25, 2002, 02:15: Message edited by: Judas ]

 

I see it as God sees the future and knows the future. That's why when He said He would send Jesus, He knew He wasn't going to end up putting His "foot" in His "mouth". He had the right to say it, because He knew it would happen. When Jesus says He will come again, you better believe He's going to be coming again.

Now God looks into the future and knows that you will choose (you still CHOOSE) to follow Him or reject Him. His knowing does not change what you choose. Why then did God create us? Only to know that one of His angels would rebel. Get kicked out of Heaven. And corrupt God's creation just to spite Him? Why? Because there is more God knows that we don't. Great and wonderful things are in store for those that follow Him. And if you don't follow Him, His protection of you from Satan is withheld. And what does Satan choose to do with you? Take you down with him!

3 main parties are involved here: God and His angels, Satan and his demons, and us, children of God, His creation. God wants all of us to choose to follow Him. (Time out: If God wants us to follow Him, wouldn't it even make more sense for Him to do as you say "predetermine" all of us to follow Him? But no, God is not a tyrant, and we are not robots. We have a say in the matter.) After all the only other choice is to follow Satan. This may sound harsh. It says all other religions are false, and to some that is blasphemy. But that's how it is (from a Christian standpoint). You have to go back and realize there was a time when these other religions didn't exist. Why then where they created? To lead people away from God, the true God. Satan has done about every trick in the book to tear us away from God. It's become a vendetta of his, a sick hobby. It is a sad and horrible thing to know that many believe that their religion is right, and yet they are being deceived.

Do you think Satan finds it sad? Do you think he cares? Hell no! Its a sick joke to him. We are just a tool to him. A tool to get back at God. When we are of no use to him he tosses us aside like garbage. God does no such thing. God accepts us despite whatever we've done. All we have to do is repent and follow Him. Satan even tries to get a hold on Christians. He tries to make then either too complacent and sit their like a lump on a log and do nothing for Christ, or he'll try to lead one aside to a path of fanaticism. The ones who holla' and scream and get all red-faced damning people to Hell. That just turns people off. It does more harm than good. You may argue that some of what I have posted turns people off. But I post sincerely and I know that all of you can CHOOSE not to go to Hell. There is a difference. I'm not here to point the finger at you and condemn you, I'm here to try to get you to see that you are being deceived and that there is something you can do about it.

Because when its all said and done and you're stuck in eternity with a fallen angel who doesn't give a damn about you and is pissed off that his time is up and he is forever bound. Do you think he is going to be a pleasant "roomate"? You think life can be hell now, you ain't seen nothing yet. But nor should you have to. As I have been saying, you have a choice.

And let's say that you're right and I am all other Christians are wrong. We die, and that's it, we just die. Boring don't you think. But ok, we just die. Nothing happens. It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong.

But let's say, Christians are right. Man you've just made a big gamble. You are screwed if you chose against God. Welcome to eternity with a pissed off fallen angel. Too bad you can't die, you're dead already. Have fun with infinite torture sessions. Too bad you didn't give God more merit when you had the chance.

Not cool, huh?

Ok let's get off something so grim for a second and try to answer Mother T's and Slim's question about people who never had a chance to know about God during their lifetime. Because of physical seperation or something that limits their mental capacity. (A quick side note: I worked with mentally challenged adults this summer and let me tell you, there can be no ends to their love and compassion sometimes. They are great Christians, and many have the capacity to not only tell you about God, but I was convinced that my 70 year old mentally challenged camper knew more about the bible then me, having many versus memorized. Now that is amazing. Little signs of God's coming kingdom, here in everyday life.) Here is what I once thought:

Personally, I cannot imagine people who never heard about God, never had a remote opportunity of hearing about God to even make a yes or no decision, of going to hell. Then again, the only way to heaven is through Jesus. My answer to this problem: Jesus intervenes for these people and they do in fact go to heaven. Why do I think this? Jesus came to establish a link with sinners and God, and died for all sinners on the cross only to rise again in 3 days. For everyone who has heard this, they either believe it or think it's whack. But for those who haven't for whatever reason must still go to heaven. It would not be fair if they didn't. Same concepts with babies and small children. Not being able to make the choice either because you can't comprehend it or it's never been presented to you is not something these people can be held accountable for.

Well, notice I said that is what I "once" thought. Good ol' Mat reminded me of Romans 2:20 which states:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have clearly been seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Through nature, it is evident that God exists. None are without excuse.

After a lot of thought here is my current, modified belief:

Personally, I cannot imagine people who never heard about God, never had a remote opportunity of hearing about God to even make a yes or no decision, of going to hell. Then again, the only way to heaven is through Jesus. My possible answer to this problem (or at least the best one I can come up with based on what I know and hold to be true): Jesus intervenes for these people. Perhaps when they die, they are confronted by Jesus, who explains to them who He is and reminds them of the world they lived they in, and how through nature, Gods existence is known. But He would let them know that He is God. Then they can choose. (Because if through nature God is known, then which god? Did not the Native Americans have "gods" based on nature? But they were physically seperated from Christians. They could not have known at the time about the Christian God. This is the suggested point of clarification.) Jesus came to establish a link with sinners and God, and died for all sinners on the cross only to rise again in 3 days. For everyone who has heard this, they either believe it or think it's whack. And what of the people who spread to the far corners of the earth before Jesus came along, and have never heard of God because their forefathers neglected to pass the knowledge down? What exactly did Jesus do for three days when He was down in Hell? A perfect opportunity to preach and set those who would follow Him free. Proving yet again His dominion over Satan. Not being able to make the choice either because you can't comprehend it or it's never been presented to you is not something these people can be held accountable for -- until they are given an opportunity to choose. And then they are held accountable for their choice. The specifics on when they are given the choice are not detailed, those mentioned above are my best guess. However, God knows if you've had the chance to choose before or not. So this is not a "second chance" for those that rejected God during their lives. Only a "chance" for those who had none.

God is fair and just. It is Satan who would have you believe otherwise. The reality is Satan isn't the bogeyman, and he's not a guy in a red suit. Although if you think these things then he would have you keep on thinking that way. After all if a potential threat is seen as non-existent or made fun of in a light way, it disguises the fact that it is indeed a serious threat. Quite simply put Satan doesn't want you on to him. It's time to be on to him. Be on your guard against Satan, not against God.

[ September 25, 2002, 03:22: Message edited by: Big B ]

 

B, you sorta didn't respond to this one:

If personal salvation is available through Jesus, and this person has obviously "rejected" the curch in order to "save" many other people, shouldn't these selfless acts allow passage to heaven?

 

That one wasn't clear Slim.

John 14

(Jesus speaking to His disciples)

"Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going."

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"

Jesus said to him, " I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Did the person in the above example, know Jesus? Did they repent? Where they a Christian? Then yes. If not, then no.

Keep in mind:

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

 

I think that a theme that is arising is that not everyone believes the same thing.

The church has one stand on beliefs.
The bible has another way of looking at things.
Another denomination has another way of looking at things.

Which is correct and what happens if you pick a loser. Could you potentially go to hell?

The choice was obvious as you only have to look at the world to see God, yet you didnt pick a winner.

I would assume that most denominations would simply say, okay, look, you believed in God and that is enough. So if you wanted to, you could invent your own form of Christianity where you believe in God / Jesus and help others - that should be acceptable or simply believe in God / Jesus and do nothing.

I think the standpoint of some people is when judgement day comes, everyone will be given a second chance (and why not - God is forgiving) so really, so long as when the time comes (and you'll know about it) you chose the side of Go(o)d and not (D)Evil, you'll be right.

[ September 25, 2002, 04:28: Message edited by: Mother T ]

 

Okay, i have decided on something.

I will go and get my hands on both the Bible as well as the Apogryphical (Spelling?) books, and read them. After THAT I am going to post my impressions.

Results can be expected in the next few weeks or so. Or possibly tomorrow if I get inspired.

Ara
(Who just realized that the teacher she has a major crush on will be teaching her first class tomorrow.... eeeeek!)

 

Trust me, getting inspired about the bible is hard.

 

goddamnit BTA: you keep slipping in to correct the evolutionary misunderstandings before i get the chance!

nutrimat: it was exactly that misconception of how natural selection operates that i addressed in my topic! see: http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=002331 "evolution by natural selection is directed towards specific goals" (it is NOT, by the way)

mother t: individuals (even of the same denomination) will give differrent answers to your question on "whether believing in the 'correct' religion will allow you to jump the queue of purgatory". personally, i think the queue-jumping is entirely dependent on how you've lived your life. for me, having a strong faith (in whatever religion that might be) helps give your life meaning (helping others whenever the opportunity arises) and preventing your spirit from becoming restless (in this i mean that i no longer find that i'm 'looking' for something to change my life). i'm not looking to convert others because otherwise i fear they'll got to hell/spend longer in purgatory, but would try because it'll make their lives happier.

as i've already said, i'm quite liberal, and sometimes describe myself as a zen-christian (note that zen is not necessarily connected to bhuddism). i've also spent alot (sic) of time studying the samurai, and try to follow bushido- living as if i'm already dead/about to die anyway (though i obviously don't serve a particular lord, rather i serve 'people in general'). i interpret modern bushido as an ever-present awareness to help others when as soon as a situation presents itself, as no-one knows what tomorrow will bring. this could be something as mundane as noticing an elderly person as soon as they get on a bus so that you're the first to give up your seat. you never know what'll happen when a life-or-death situation arises, so it's good to train yourself to act selflessly so that it'll be second nature if/when it does, and you don't spend valuble moments weighing up whether your life is more important than theirs or vice versa.

anyone else base their faith on a combination of religions or beliefs?

[ September 25, 2002, 15:10: Message edited by: the god ]

 

Uh, Judas, I clearly did not say that there was any proof for the existence of God in the way this thread was developing. Oh, and since it seems that you've got a particular question (What is the proof for the existence of God?), let me ask if you've read Thomas Aquinas's four proofs. They are not, of course, scientific proof, as we cannot exactly recreate God in a lab. They are philosophical proofs. A more convincing (and accessible) series of proofs is provided in Peter Kreeft's book Fundamentals of the Faith. I'd summarize them here for you, but I don't have my copy at work.

And you'll notice that I did not offer names of posters who were being abusive. You didn't attack people directly, at least.

Shadow Assasin, welcome back. Please provide me with evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. If you have "original versions" or something, I know a guy in Rome with a funny hat who would like to see them.

You need to read up on the nature of Christ and Satan before you make such claims as "Christianity is polytheistic." Your understanding is a bit simplistic, but since it's a religion you don't practice that's understandable. And perhaps add a book on salvation theories since I don't think any major Christan denomination actually teaches that those who have never heard about Christianity automatically go to Hell. In short: welcome back; everything you just said is wrong.

[ September 25, 2002, 17:30: Message edited by: Shralp ]