POLL: Homosexuality: Good or bad?

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-Why not? Just say, "I'm straight, but thanks for thinking I'm cute" and go on with your life.

-That makes no sense.

-Still, you have so many contradicting, confused definitions or orientation, preference, and pathological preference or orientation that your argument makes no sense.

-Why change it if they're happy?

-Studies have shown homosexual parents are more likely to have a child who is heterosexual than heterosexual parents are. Besides, the genetic evidence points to a mutuation during individual pregnancies -- not a gene that is passed on from the parent.

-Artificial insemination is extremely different from cloning. And your definition of cloning is in this language dramatically incorrect. I'm afraid the language barrier is going to make this discussion difficult if not impossible.

-...What?

-Again, studies done show despite some problems (caused by external homophobia) do not cause major problems for the children. They grow up healthy, well-adjusted, and for the most part, heterosexual.

-Yeah, I'm afriad in a discussion with so many advanced English words in it you might not be able to properly participate. I don't think your thought was getting across as you wanted it to and I'm sorry we can't speak in the same language and understand each other better.

 

Since my English is poor let me try tackling on some simple matters. Although this question of yours will inevitably lead to other questions that are not so simple...

So your question is "Why change it if they are happy?" Well, what do you consider to be the meaning of our lives? Do we live to be happy? Do we live just to enjoy ourselves? Do we live to contribute to the society and a better good? Do we live to reproduce thus continue the human race? That's a question that no one can fully answer as far as I know.

So if you think we live so we could be happy, so we could enjoy our lives, then there's absolutely no reason to change. However if you think continuing our bloodlines is also one of the (many) reasons that we live, then changing to a heterosexual is preferable. I mean if a bisexual can live happily as a homosexual or as a heterosexual, however being a heterosexual means he/she has more chance to continue his/her bloodline, that could be a reason to change.

Of course that fully depends on what they think and their own desicions. I made it totally clear that I don't think we should try to change their sexual preferences if they themselves don't want to.

And I know a lot of Christians who thinks that artificial insemination an affront to God (of course some of them also think homosexuals are affront to God, so...) and you seems to draw the line between artificial insemination and cloning humans, while I think both are okay as long as they are not used for evil purposes.

PS: Kinda wonder how to say the technology that creates human fetus from two eggs or two sperms. Maybe it should not be called clone, but it's not really artificial insemination, so what should it be called?

 

After doing the celebrity test, I would say Homosexuality is definately good. As Joacqin so perfectly states. More for us straight ones

 

From a purely biological view - homosexuality has probably evolved out of necessity... there are too many humans living on the planet... victims of our own success in medical technology.

Homosexuality may well be a natural mechanism of nature to help decrease populations. It has been observed in other species such as chimps, dogs and birds.

Forget your fear fairy stories of the Bible, Qu'ran or any other outdated sexist racist homophobic nonsense of 'religion' (ugh!); simply accept it! At least 5%, probably 10% of people are gay in general... and in women, 40% have had some sort of lesbian/bisexual relationship by the time they are 30.

I am not gay, but I have one gay male friend and several bisexual female friends!

 

Hey Shadowhunter, hey Sprite! You are sweet to notice. I've been... disenchanted and ghosting but may now be back.

But if Kooran isn't going to read her pm's, I guess I'll post it here.
_______________________________
posted September 12, 2002 18:43
Dear Kooran:

In case you don't read the thread -- I wasn't laughing at you, only at the inability of biologists to make themselves understood by normal people. The god, I fancy, had no intention of coming out against homosexuality, nor do I. If it is a choice, it is a courageous one considering all the ignorance in the world. If it is inborn, it is still a courageous choice to stand up for who you are and to pursue happiness in the face of people who want everyone to be as loveless and unhappy as they are. (Why else would anyone worry where consenting adults find love?)

Young as you are, you've made that choice. Made it, knowing it to be a choice, as all our actions are. I decided to be straight only after exploring all my options, just as I decided to be an atheist after exploring the major religions. It is my belief that you can't knock it til you try it, but most people are too cowardly, I think, to do that.

Shralp has courage, too, which I respect -- but yours is greater. I had to let you know that. Far be it from *me* to condescend to *you*.

Methylviolet
_____________________

(Hey Methylviolet -- tell us what you really think!)

All this about genes is so irrelevant, in my view. Though I am a biologist, I will try to explain my views.

I myself express the Bigbutt phenotype, or physical characteristic affected by genes. This, while not a disorder, does certainly interfere at times with my success in mating. (Though not with Sir Mix-a-Lot.)

I also smoke, and am obnoxious -- two behavioral, non-genetic, characteristics that limit my pool of available mating partners.

However, unlike most of you, I have two healthy children who seem likely to survive to be fertile adults. So in biological terms,
Methylviolet: 2, Kull: 0.
As biologists see it, mine is a reproductively successful collection of genes. Therefore, I am a wonderful person and a credit to humanity, and all of you should be just like me.

Oh -- wait.

The god is sending me a psychic IM.

He says that reproductive success only determines the contribution of an individual to future generations' gene pool, not their worth in moral or societal terms. Huh?

Oh -- now I am getting another psychic IM -- from Shralp.

And he says that we judge others' worth by their actions, not their genetics, and while he loves me kiss kiss kiss, my obnoxiousness is deliberate, and not a trait worthy of emulation.

OK. So I am obnoxious, smoke, and have a big butt. Reproductively speaking, I have most of you beat, but as a credit to humanity, perhaps not. Do I get to be how I am -- both the chosen and inborn aspects? Am I deviant? Do I have a disorder? Indeed, some of you like my obnoxiousness -- but would those of you who don't have me discriminated against for a bank loan?

Obviously, those who don't like smokers, obnoxious people or big butts don't have to be my friends, but it is that not the *sum* of their just power to suppress me?

 

Methyl, I have to say I truly admire your courage. You live in California, and you smoke!! As a fellow smoker, I want you to know that you have my *full* support

P.S. Nice to see you back

 

-Okay, cheers.

-Understandable.

-Well, I'm not a good poster child for the choice issue either way because I don't find my preferencial view of women as a choice either, but yeah. I mean, I also like black hair and blue eyes -- I find find gender almost as arbitrary.

I'd like to be able to say "Yes I am definately a homosexual and I can tell you it's x,y,z" but I'm not and I can't. I do my best to present the evidence I found through years of struggle and depression that I kept overwhelmingly to myself -- so it must be further excused if I am ever emotional.

-I don't know. It's actually remarkably easy to get swept up in self-hatred and denial. In retrospect on times where I contemplated suicide because I felt I was pathological I find that it was easy to believe when people told me I was sick or evil or wrong.

That's not because I'm impressionable either -- because I like to think I'm not. It's more that with something as fragile, complicated, and confusing as sexuality it's easy to get swept up into a vicious dichotomy.

-Beats killing myself.

-Yeah, I've never been so sure about being an atheist since I started my Bible as Literature class. I don't think it applied to my sexuality as much, but hey, props to being open minded.

-Well, thanks.

 

Well, looks like I'm about to butt into a rather intense debate here...(without having read most of the posts, since I simply don't have the time right now to sit and read for an hour or 2)
I am against homosexuality, for a few reasons; it grosses me out for one, it strikes me as incredibly...wrong, and a friend of mine once backed it up with a biblical quote (which seems similar to the one Viking posted, but which also compares male gay sex to bestiality, but I could be wrong, as it's been about 6 years since my friend showed me the passage).
Viking brought up a good argument (except for 7, the hair-cutting one, which is overruled in one of Paul's letters), though I recommend you take that up in more detail with Mathetais, who could likely come up with something better than my blank stare...
Personally, I have nothing against gay people who act like normal people, but it's those people at the gay pride parades that piss me off. Crossdressers and the like...
I have also developed a burning anger towards effeminate men, whether gay or not (though most of those I meet are indeed gay) that I haven't been able to explain...
That's pretty much it for now, though I don't imagine it'll be very hard for anyone to shoot down my comment soon.

 

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiii Fearus!!

/me waves silly with hands, talking with a ****** up voice

 

-Always hard to get a word in, isn't it?

-Fair enough.

-My parents having sex grosses me out, that's hardly a logical reason for me to be against a healthy expression of their relationship...

-If you want to discuss the (reasonably false) interpretation of homosexuality as a sin (the sin of Sodom, the unclean Cainanite practice, the dog priests and prostitutes...) we can do that in a new topic. Just as a start, consider the fact the word "homosexual" has only been around for a little over 100 years.

-There's more than one. Romans, Corinithians, Leviticus, Genesis...

-I think I missed something.

-Wow we need to have a talk about this. Gay people are normal people. Those that become overimmersed in a homosexual identity (which is often sterotypically gender atypical and therefore threatening to a heteronormative society) I do lament.

Your sexuality is definately an infinitely important part of your identity but you shouldn't take it on as all of your identity-- whether you are homo, hetero, or bisexual.

At any rate, pride parade marchers are not a very accurate cross-section of homosexuals, or bisexuals. I don't own a single piece of pride gear, hell, I'm in the closet most of the time.

-The vast majority of transvestites are heterosexual, masculine men in their mid to late thirties or forties.

-A ways after I'd figured out I wasn't straight I developed the most fierce, terrifying hatred of gay people. I wanted to beat them, torture them, and kill them. I had to bite my tongue from shouting fag at the mere sight of one.

As time passed I had to come to painful realization that it was just a reaction to the hatred I felt towards myself. I won't assume that's your reason, but if it is, please do feel free to talk to me sometime.

Either way, your hatred is irrational and needless, let it go.

-If you recognize the weakness of your arguments why not better them yourself?

 

Methyl:

No one can argue with sheer numbers and hard facts... That´s why I like your brain!

P.S.:

Listen to this woman!

She may let you know a thing or two!

 

methylviolet: xxx (kiss kiss kiss, not an expletive)

 

Methyl... WE LOVE YOU GIRL !



You're always right on the money honey !



If only more women thought like you

 

Faerus, you really should try arguing with facts instead of things like "it's wrong because it grosses me out."

 

"me grimlock no bozo, me king!"

-transformers the movie (but message understood bta).

 

-Indeed, Kooran, I'm glad you did, 'cause if you didn't I'd be freaked (meaning to say, there was no overruling, that was a mistake on my part)

-Good point, but the logical argument to that would be that your parents having sex can produce children (unless either or both of your parents have been sterilized, in which case there is no logical argument that I can think of)...Although, you are right, being "grossed out" is not a good reason to be against homosexuality, and my last post was likely a result of my impulsiveness (as is this one, most likely)

-Again, good point, but this thread was started to discuss whether homosexuality is right or wrong, and the "interpretation of homosexuality as a sin" is discussing whether it is right or wrong, correct?

-Again, you are right, but what I meant by normal (which I neglected to write, and I apologize for not stating this in my previous post) was "indistinguishable"(Sp?) from society in general, for example, there are 2 gay guys at my school (that I know of), one of them, I would have bet my left and right arms that he was gay before he came out of the closet, while the other, I had no clue until a friend of his told me...the latter I would consider "normal" while the former would be (by my crude definition) "abnormal or distinguishable from society in general."

-A kind thought, and I thank you for offering, but I can assure you that I am not gay(believe me, if I was I would talk to you, if for no other reason than because you're kind enough to offer that to a complete stranger). But, yes, my anger is irrational (note that I had not said hatred, as there is a fine line between anger and hatred, one that I have not crossed, to the best of my knowledge) since it is based mostly in ignorance, a willing ignorance, since this is not really a subject I would like to learn more about. (No offence intended)

-I recognize the weakness of my argument in general, partly because I'm not very knowledgable in this subject, and partly because I answered simply for the sake of making my opinion known (and not so trying so much to defend it)

Slimshogun, what I just said above will hopefully let you know why I didn't use facts to back up my opinion.

Note, my arguments have pretty much been weakened to the breaking point, and all I'm left with now is my own, personal opinion, and that is that homosexuality is wrong. However, I do not think that homosexuals are bad, especially when there are those willing to offer a hand to strangers (I really respect that gesture). This may sound like a contradiction, but it is not...one can hate an idea without hating those who support it.

PS-Hey Morgoth

 

I REALLY hate the "idea" of those people who have weak arguments, prejudiced opinions, and self-contradictory statements.

 

Do you need to have a PhD in a subject before you're entitled to express an opinion in Whatnots? Others have expressed their tolerance of homosexuality without backing it up with research, and no one slammed them. Poor Faerus just shared his own feelings on the subject, just as we were all invited to do in this thread. There's no need to be unkind to him just because his politely-phrased but undefended opinion is less politically correct than the other undefended opinions we read in Whatnots every day. Free speech, free speech!

 

Faerus--

Well, I'm glad that you understand some of the weakness of your arguments. I hope I didn't come across too harshly, I try not to. I remember being homophobic and I sympathize.

However, I still stand by my statement that such irrational hatred, or as you say "anger", is based on an underlying sexual insecurity. Whether that means you are gay or not is irrelevent, really. I was just trying to extend a kindness I wish had been extended to me.

Yes, it is reasonable to discuss the bible issues here. However, recently a 500 page interpretation of homosexuality in the bible was recently sent to the Vatican (not trying to pick on Roman Catholics) just to give you a sense of scale of the sheer volume of those arguments. And if you're curious, the document argued homosexuality is not a sin but it was rejected by the Pope.

Take that as you will.

Sprite--
People get emotional about issues like this, try to be understanding yourself of that. And no, Whatnots has no prerequiste but that doesn't mean that a reasonable discussion is necessarily possible without some strong knowledge in the subject.

I think that people should know what they're talking about. If they don't, then they deserve to be debated with. If they happen to be able to smell who's winning and hop aboard without thinking, shame on them.

I think it's tragic that people willfully avoid to explore or discuss sexuality (both the logistics and variations). If I or others can at least lead them in the direction to think about it, I feel some good has been done.

And let's not get into a 1st Amendment argument, I can just see that spiraling off into a whole other tangent. Someone will say, "This is why the KKK can march as often as the ACLU!" and then a deluge of issues can come out. Veritable new can of worms. Start a new topic, perhaps?

Slimshogun--
Your heart is definately in the right place, but you are fiercer than I. Maybe I should feel jealous that I don't have quite the passion for this cause, but I try to temper it with some humility-- I have been wrong in the past.

PS--
I've been checking referrals for my site and apparently sixty or so of them have come from this site. So, obviously, people are curious about me or are paying attention to what I'm saying.

To all of you who have had the patience to read all things said or the graciousness to visit my site: Cheers.

If you do want to talk to me about anything discussed (or anything not discussed!) always feel free to contact me. I will be more than happy to talk to you.