Life after death

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Thomas of Aquino provided several proofs similar to this one. Yet anyway religion is faith. Faith does not rely on proof. Assuming God exists we may give several examples of those to back our conviction (in discussion for example), but ex definitione there must not be enough proof not to require faith.

 

Hello! That is not what is meant at all by eternity. Eternity essentially means existing outside the bounds of time, just as infinity suggests an existence outside the bounds of space. Even Big Bang scientists will tell you that the spacetime continuum did not exist before Planck time (the beginning of the big bang). If you think the universe is truly eternal (did not have a beginning) then you will have to explain to me just what exactly started the big bang.

 

But if something exist outside the bounds of time, it can´t move, act, be.. when time stops excisting. You can´t measure space without time.

What is outside space, the boundaries of the universe? nothing, so nothing is infinite,
if there was something outside the universe, it wasn´t outside, it was part of the universe.

I don´t think the universe is truly eternal, it´s just eternal in our timestandards, forever, until the forever stops existing, I cant imagine a truly eternal world, since how do you want to define it

nothing is truly eternal

and no the universe didnt pop out of nowhere, there was no "before" the universe, nor "after"

[ January 21, 2003, 22:54: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

What makes you think nothing exists outside the boundaries of spacetime? Once again, let me introduce you to your own beliefs. Before the big bang (according to modern theory), spacetime did not exist. All matter was compressed into a singularity; none of the laws of physics existed -- for space nor time were present to circumscribe them. The Big Bang produced not only the universe as we know it, but the laws that govern it and the spacetime continuum that provides the framework.

All that to show you that even matter, according to your own theory, did at one point exist outside of spacetime. How much harder is it to believe that God Himself could exist outside the boundaries?

 

All this talk of time and space and logic. That's great but you know what? It amounts to nothing but semantics. God exists outside of mankind's languages. He does not have to abide by the rules defined by our so called "words" with so called "meanings". The only words you need to put your stock in is the Bible, because that is God's gift to man for communication and instruction.

Old brother John puts it best in the first few verses of his gospel:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines into the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

And John knows what he is talking about. After all he's the only person so far who has been able to see all the events that take place in Revelation and in the future from his vision when he was exiled on the isle of Patmos.

 

Big B proves the precise reason why there's no point to arguing with a religious person. Religion is a thing unlike any other. In any debate over any thing, it's always essential to be able to prove your point to the others. But a as a religious debate goes very much like a debate with a child who's parent's have told a lie to. You can't prove otherwise.

This is not to undermine religious people. It's simply a fact the very nature of a religion is such. You can't force another to give it up as it's completely a matter of personal opinion, rather than any proof. How many times have I had to go into a debate where when the other says "prove it", I do my best to prove it. And when I say "prove it", he says he doesn't need to, for if I don't know that he's right then I'm just not enlightened enough. I mean, that's rediculous. There can be no winner in a debate like that.

 

Too true. To each his own. My points are merely about the enjoyment of life- whatever floats your boat, go nuts.

@Capstone: My tickling comment was in regards to the enjoyment of life. If you believe that after this life, there is another, far greater, far vaster, far more infinitely pleasant existence so long as you play your cards right, does that not detract anything from how much effort you invest in exploring this world, how much you broaden your horizons and learn about other people and their cultures? Far too many people wrap themselves up in their beliefs and refuse to hear one word otherwise, let alone invest time and money to go out and see the world, to enjoy life and all it has to offer. They sit at home, have a simple existence, lead a clean, decent life, and die.

An atheist like myself, on the other hand, believes that all he or she has is this one set of 70 some-odd years, more or less depending on the individual, and then as someone so mockingly put it, poof! They experience, they enjoy, they make the most out of every moment, because there is nothing we are preparing for. We're just living.

Who do you think cherishes this life more? He with only this life to live? Or he who uses this life to prove his worthiness and embrace God's kingdom? Who is living THIS life closer to its fullest potential?

It's like, say a kid is told that if he eats his peas he'll get desert. He'll gobble them peas plum into his mouth like they be flapjacks on Sunday. But tell a kid that if he doesn't eat his peas, that's all plain and good, the little runt can starve, he will not only eat those peas, but if he's smart, he'll learn to like them.

You'd be surprised how good peas taste once you realize they're all you have... compared to how sour they taste when all you can think about is ice cream.

 

I don´t!! I believe nothing "exist" outside the universe
Since the universe is everything that exist and if God excisted outside the universe (you need to be outside the universe to create it and you can´t create yourself) he is nothing

Earlier you answered my "originofGod" question by claiming that God was eternal, then why can´t the universe be eternal?

@Big B
If God is above our "words" and "meanings" then why do you follow a book which defines God in human "words" and "meanings".
Then why do you still define God as "above our words and meanings" since you cant define him in english

Did light understand darkness?

@Foradasthar
I seek thruth, and I search at both sides of the wall

 

I don't believe there is some kind of an afterlife.

I think we live our lifes as best we can, play our parts in society and evolution, try to be happy and in the end we die. we make way for new generations that in their turn help the race to improve and survive. After all, that is what we are programmed to do. And when we die we are nothing more than a heap of cells that once formed an organism. a soul you say? No such thing. Our thoughts and feelings are in essence chemical processes.
So there we are, a bunch of cells that no longer work and will decay. and since there is no soul, there is no afterlife.

Do I have proof of this? No. simple as that.

[ January 22, 2003, 17:28: Message edited by: Uytuun ]

 

Foradasthar, I understand your point, and that's why I've steered clear of debating whether Christianity is right or not. However, I'd like to point out (for BigB's benefit) that our ideas of logic and time and space are directly sprung from an eminently logical creation, which is God's expression. Suffice to say that nature itself (as Paul says in Romans 1 and 2) shows us the nature of God by its laws and orderliness. But that is a religious discussion, and not a scientific one, so....

A short comment to Amon-Ra: if there is an afterlife, then enjoying this life more wouldn't be much of an advantage. After all, who really cares about enjoying peas anyway if you're going to eat ice cream? But at any rate, I've found the greatest enjoyment to be in helping others -- living my life as Christ would is not wrapping myself away from the world and having a simple, dull existence. To the contrary, it's the most fulfilling life I've experienced.

Morgoth: you've completely twisted the bounds of logic. If you simply define the universe as everything that exists and then say God couldn't create the universe as that would mean He didn't exist before it was created is really just a lot of ballyhoo -- you're only using semantics to try to cut out God, and that doesn't prove anything. All I have to do is say that God created everything else in the universe (including the spacetime continuum) and we're back at square one.

As to why the universe can't be eternal, I answered that in the last post. I consider the universe to be the extent of matter in space and time, as do all scientists as far as I know. As I said, if the universe is eternal, then you've got to explain to me what started the big bang. And I'd like to remind you that you responded that the universe isn't really eternal, for what that's worth.

 

Morgoth, I anticipated your argument and that is why I included this in my last post:

"The only words you need to put your stock in is the Bible, because that is God's gift to man for communication and instruction."

The Bible is God's Word. That is why you can turn to those "words". God conveys his ideas to us through the authors of the Bible. God is above language. He created mankind, who in turn, devised language as a way to communicate between each other. He puts our language to good use though, through the Bible.

And Capstone, you hit the highlight when you said:

"A short comment to Amon-Ra: if there is an afterlife, then enjoying this life more wouldn't be much of an advantage. After all, who really cares about enjoying peas anyway if you're going to eat ice cream? But at any rate, I've found the greatest enjoyment to be in helping others -- living my life as Christ would is not wrapping myself away from the world and having a simple, dull existence. To the contrary, it's the most fulfilling life I've experienced."

What do we get out of life if we are expecting an eternity of sheer goodness? We get the chance to help others. Not everyone is a Christian obviously. Spreading the good news is good stuff. I seriously don't want anyone to go to hell. I'm going to do the best I can to get people to see the Truth. Also, life provides us an opportunity to help others over their hardships and suffering. Community. We are in this together. The friendships I make now, here on earth, are friendships for eternity. I described it earlier as a battlefield. It is, it truly is. Satan wants the Christians neutralized and he wants everyone else to stay blind in his lies. But we can't just let that happen. I am a soldier for Christ, and until it's my time to come home, I'm on active duty. I don't see that as a boring life.

 

@Capstone
If that, to you, is fulfilling, more power to you. I, on the other hand, feel I have nothing to prove. I am an A-theist, I exist as things are and have no need to disprove the existence of God to anyone, even myself. I could care less, so long as it doesn't affect me.

@BigB
I understand what you are saying, even, oddly, why you are saying it. You believe you are right. I'm just saying I don't agree. I have my reasons, just as you have yours. But you are not my friend, and I am not in this with you. We share a planet, and by share I mean anything and everything that I need to exist I will take, even if that means taking it away from you. If that's not the case, then yes, for both of our benefit we can live in harmony. But I am not your brother, and there is no need for you to try and save me.

I don't fear Satan, because he does not exist in my mind. You can call me blind and I can call you ignorant all day if we like, but I am yet to be convinced by any theism that there exists a God or many gods. The burden of proof does not rest on my shoulders, and inconsistencies plague all major religions, not to mention past ignorant acts of church, cavalier/holier-than-thou attitudes, major threats of damnation, disregard of the sciences and logic, intolerance for others-all of these things are not winning me over.

For the record, many people try to generalize Atheists as a belief system, despite the fact that it isn't. Imagine a world with no religion, NONE. Would a person born into this world have a default belief system of not believing in God if God didn't exist? Atheists are those people, the people whose world has no God, so they do not "believe" something, they don't. They simply do not believe conjectures a theist puts forth. Also, most atheists I've met are nice, good, clean, decent people, and I feel that for the most part we get a bad wrap because we are going against the flow and will be sent to Hell and all. We aren't Satanic, yet somehow many christians view us as worse. At least Satanic people acknowledge the existence of God and Satan...

It's I'm not the only one, look and see. Is the world becoming more religious or less on the par? I long for the day that religious moralism is replaced with objectivist ethics and we can live without drawing unnecessary borders and engaging in competitions to convert based on religion.

 

I find the fear of Satan as amusing, after all isnt god da *man*? Why would he let one of his former employees wreck all his hard work? Sounds pretty silly to me.
If I am dubious about the existance of god, especially any god that described in any manwritten book I am absolutely sure about the nonexistance of a silly little bugger that lives beneath the earth and tries to make trouble for everyone. If satan would exist then god wouldnt be supreme and then where would christianity be?

 

Satan does exist, indeed, but he is bounded. If God doesn't want anything to happen that satan has in mind, then it simply won't happen. (Satan was allowed to take anything from Job exept his life, and it didn't happen)

Why God allows this all, I do not know, but I know that Satan has no grip on me when I pray to God.
Satan is already slayn (sp), so is death.
We are just waiting for the final come-back.
Maranatha!

 

Allow me to give my point of view:
Live after death -> worms, bugs and bacteria eating your corpse. That's what lives after your death. No soul, nor heaven or hell. Just a rotting carcass.

 

Joacquin,
Satan is allowed more time because God would have it be so. I mentioned earlier we are given a chance for choice. God let's us choose. You either choose God or you choose Satan. I just want to clear up something else, I don't fear Satan. What I do fear is innocent people being lied to and led along blindly to their eternal demise. Which is far worse than any little dose of suffering we may experience while we have this opportunity to live our lives and make the choice.

 

And if you don't choose or believe in either? Where then would your soul go?

 

By choosing not to believe, or by choosing neither all you do is seperate yourself from God. And there are only two categories. With God or without God. The latter is what Satan would have you to do. So the latter is choosing Satan, or at least choosing to remain blind to God.

 

That is the stupidest reasoning I have ever heard. By not choosing or believing in any of them, I am effectivly turning them both away which would be somewhere in the middle. But then, this is pointless arguing because
A. I believe in nneither of them so I have no cause of worry
and B. I'm arguing with a Christian, and they are never going to concede that you a right, or at least have a point

 

One word. Brainwashing