POLL: Your religion

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I think a lot of what I remember was in the New Testament. It's another one of those cases of the Old Testament God being fairly harsh, and the New Testament God being a little more laid back.
And I really should have been more specific about it, since I kinda through everything under one general blanket. I meant things that were more like....drink, or sex even. Like, something like smoking isn't mentioned, but a great number of churches are against it because there's almost no way to not do it in excess. It's hard to smoke in moderation, yes? So that's why I didn't mention it. And geez, see, now I'm rambling.

 

Yes, God became a litle bit more "laid back", after the Old Testament... In the Old Testament he could not endure evil, he could not percieve it...

Since the human race had been corrupted by Satan, and therefore werent pure, God couldn't let them enter Eden...

Therefore he sendt his Son, Jesus (the New Testament) to die for our sins... Now our sins were cleared for all eternity...
This allowed us to enter Eden... Yay...

Hope this answered some questions...

*Pfew*... Heavy material...

EDIT - Btw... I'm christian...

 

Aahh but Satan was the bringer of knowledge, he showed us some things which God would have liked to remain hidden..

What are those things, hmmm? Remember that Satan was the greatest of all angels, and then stood up against God, why?

It is all still symbolism, Adam is the Sumerian word for mankind, Eden was the place of ignorance were peace would be eternal since we would be to blind to see the thruth.
As soon as we got the knowledge of "good" and "evil" we were banished, since we were no longer ignorant.

But mankind was told of "good" and "evil" in the same way as many people still see it, but why the fuss about discovering the truth about it hmm?
Maybe it was a lie designed to keep the herd in place, Lilith found out about it and rebelled, leaving "Adam" alone.
Adam got Eve and Eve gave us knowledge through Satan, therefore we got banished us. Strange that many cultures have stories about why the male should be superior to the women, because a woman had done something bad.

BTW maybe but Jesus said something in the lines of "forgive what they are doing, because they don´t understand what they´re doing", about who did he talked, his blind followers, or the "disbelievers"

I think the blind followers, since in the book of Thomas, Jesus stated that he loved the lost sheep more than the entire herd.

 

Morgoth,
God gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to eat from the one tree and He told them what it was: Death. So God did not exactly keep it hidden, nor did He lie.
It was satan who lied. He tricked Adam and Eve to pick and eat the fruit, so they would be like God. At least, that's what he told them. The truth was that they knew the difference between good (how it was: life) and evil (how it became: death). Exactly what God told them.
Satan the bringer of knowledge? Yeah, his knowledge: lies. And look what we have now with that knowledge: Murder, theft, rape, death, intrigues, war, pestilence, famine and lots of other nice stuff.

Before satan's lies, there was a world where this all didn't exist, so how could we have knowledge of it? Satan triggered a new, death world. Evil exists there, so now we can have knowledge of it.

(Oh! Who am Itrying to fool? I'm bored out of my skull )

 

You know, Master of Nuhn, sometimes I think that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I often believe that we have only ourselves (by that, I mean mankind) to blame for biting in such a bittersweet fruit.

 

Yes MoN, all those things you named are the expression of one's thoughts, the price of knowledge. Satan didn't lie, because knowledge makes you the equal of God, god in your own mind.


(/me Points at Istari, Look, a three headed monkey!!)

[ March 17, 2003, 11:00: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Dragon's Jewel. I find it interesting that there is a God of the Old Testament vs a God of the New Testament. I suspect that you don't mean that there are 2 Gods, but it sounds that way if one (me) is too pedantic. I thought that God was meant to be unchanging and so the same whether prior to Old Testament, or post New Testament.

AFAIK God is not really on centre stage in the New Testament whereas He was in the Old. (Can I actually say that the Testaments are Old and New?)

Below is not meant to be a personal attack or anything, just observations...

I have often found it quite entertaining to see people viewing God as harsh and "cruel" in the Old Testament while kind and "loving" in the New Testament. I have found places in the Old Testament where God is portrayed as being very loving and tender, while I find the idea of an innocent being punished for the sins of others from the New Testament rather tyrannical and cruel.

I am not saying that God is or isn't these things, I am saying that I don't think that God has ever changed, we simply view Him as being different, depending on our relationship with Him (if there is one?)...

My personal views are different from the above examples.

Felgash Toradun. This is not an attack, just curiosity getting the better of me.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement.

"In the Old Testament he could not endure evil, he could not percieve it".

As it stands, I can't agree with it. I suspect that your true meaning and intention is not what I am thinking. Would you like to add more?

 

Man we are really straying from the topic. But since we have, let me say that apparently most of us have assumed that the story of creation is true. I consider it mythology just like all early civilizations have their story of creation. Of course the way it was written does make it more meaningful.

I'm still in the process in deciding whether the Devil/Satan exists. Who created him? If you say God, then you say He created evil. If you say he was a fallen angel, how is this possible? I thought only humans had free will. Lucifer wouldn't have been able to disobey God. And even if he did, how did mankind hear of that story? It's not like there were any human witnesses. What, a little angel told someone?

Finally, Satan in Genesis did not bring knowledge. The Tree of Knowledge was created by God. The snake just tempted Eve.

 

Satan's original title was Lucifer, bringer of light.
Light stands symbol for knowledge and wisdom, therefor Lucifer means bringer of knowledge

 

Khazraj: Again, no personal attacks. And it's been at least three years since I sat down and read the bible, so forgive anything I might mis-remember.
I think that there is more than one way of looking at the issue. (Or more than one way of interpreting it, as the case may be.) In the Old Testament, God was a extremely visible force to his followers. He took the role of the father to its extreme, punishing those who deserved punishment, and rewarding those who deserved a reward. And people, being people, ending up being punishment quite a bit more than they were rewarding. (Though I think the analogy breaks down a bit when you come to the story of Lot, but there's not really anything in the bible that lends itself easily to analogy.) And then God disappeared for 400 years. Remember that span of time between the old Testament and the New? IF I recall correctly, he pretty much just raised his hands in anguish, said "It's up to you folks" and went off to think about things for a while. When he reappears in the New Testament, 400 years down the road, he arrives to announce a new plan! A saviour! That's human, and will die for your sins! So perhaps this change of events is to account for the change in behaviour. And really, it's not a sudden thing-400 years can be a long time.

 

Under the Old Covenant (Testament), God set down laws for man to follow in order to reach Heaven. Unsurprisingly, man was unable to keep those laws, so God in His mercy made provisions for their failures. However, if they refused to take those provisions, there wasn't any mercy left -- judgment quickly followed. Under the New Covenant, Christ's death on the cross paid the price for all sins, so man no longer lives under law; all he has to do is accept God's pardon and become a part of His kingdom.

Khazraj, the idea of one man paying the price for everyone's sins isn't all that strange; it was one man's sin (Adam) who put us all in this sorry state to begin with. It's not as though Jesus Christ was unwilling.

By the way, I don't get offended much. And personally I prefer the public forum for discussion simply so that everyone can benefit from shared views, and not just us two.

On a side note, water can exist in all three phases at the same time (ice, liquid water, and steam) at atmospheric pressure, four degrees Celsius.

I'm curious as to whether you believe the Bible wholly, or simply subscribe to its general teachings. And if you do believe the Bible, do you take it literally? Just to establish where you are coming from....

 

Dragon's Jewel.

2 things that I don't agree with. "He took the role of the father" and "God disappeared for 400 years". Somehow I think that many Torah followers would disagree with this. God is God, not a father. He doesn't disappear. If we accept this to be the case then if tomorrow some rishi in India claimed to have a new message from God because He has disappeared for about 2000 years...
Do you see my point? To me God does not change. Of course that is my view.

Capstone.

I disagree with this "God set down laws for man to follow in order to reach Heaven". The Torah is a not a roadmap to "enter Paradise". God allows whoever He wants into Paradise according to His Judgement, that we won't know until the Last Day. A person can follow all of God's Laws and not believe a word of it and end up in Hell, so simply following Laws proves nothing. As an aside, followers of the Torah actually do believe in God, why else would they follow His Laws? except that they believe in Him?

Perhaps. It depends on one's understanding of "the laws in the Torah". If I abstain from worshipping false gods am I following the Law? If I never steal or commit murder nor adultery am I not adhering to the Law? The New Testament also states that the Law of Moses will not change nor pass away until all has been fulfilled (yes I know that this can be interpreted in many ways, but I don't remember Jesus saying that the Laws are "hereby today anulled...)

These kinds of laws are quite easy for man to follow and quite unironically there is almost no society on earth that tolerates murder. Man can adhere to God's Laws, they have to first believe that they are from God and also beneficial for humans. If either of these are not present, then it is simple for any person to flaunt all or some of God's Laws.

I don't agree with the idea that God's mercy can run out. There are going to be times when God punishes, there are going to be times when He forgives, there is Paradise and there is also Hell...

The Torah also states that the Laws contained in it are for "all time", so unless God changed His mind...(I also disagree with this idea)...

Would this statement be accepted in any court of law? "the idea of one man paying the price for everyone's sins isn't all that strange". To me it is extrememly strange. I believe that God can forgive Adam and all humankind until the Last Day by simply doing so and not requiring any sacrifice, human, divine or otherwise... I think it is cruel to state that God can only forgive through a blood sacrifice. This sounds very... pagan (witchdoctorlike) to me...

I also don't believe that Adam's sin was passed on to his descendants. The Torah (which is from God) says that a father is not held accountable for his son's sins nor vice versa. It is cruel to accept that God holds innocents accountable for others' sins. This is tyrannical and evil, neither of these describe God.

I disagree that humans do not need God's law any longer. If it was enough that Jesus died for all sins, then even the sins associated with rejecting God would be forgiven also. If I no longer need to follow God's Law then it is now okay for me to rape and murder and steal and, and, and...

I am not saying that Jesus is wrong, I don't believe so, but I do think that God's Law in the Torah and as it was upheld by Jesus still applies even today...

I don't remember my water freezing at 4 degrees and also being steam at the same time? I am no scientist, but for me God is God and human is human, God is Creator and human is created. They don't mix. I can't accept "incarnation", to me it is wrong. It would limit and define God as a human, this is so wrong to me. Incarnation is totally illogical, such a statement is incorrect because it has no associated reality.

If I was to accept that God became Jesus then what stops me from accepting that God is Ram or Shiva or Krishna? I accept none of these. Deified humans is all they are... Besides this is something that humans have been doing for a long time. It is always wrong.

My attitude towards the Bible. I believe in the Torah and Gospel as being from God. There are sections that are classified as Canon by Christians, that I don't view as being from God, such as Paul's epistles, and I also find some of the episodes in the Old Testament unacceptable, such as prophets committing sins that are proscribed by the Torah itself.

I can't accept it literally, obviously, because I don't believe sections that are attributed to Paul.

It all depends what you mean by general teachings. Some Christians say that generally the Bible teaches Vicarious Atonement. I disagree since it is quite absent from the Old Testament. It could be generally found that the Bible teaches belief in One God, this I accept.

Again, whatever I have mentioned is not meant to be personal attacks nor offensive. This is the way I see things.