ArtEChoke's Irate 'Cheese' list

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What is this THING we call "cheese?"
Is it something you eat?
Evidently not.

Evidence points to a mysterious state that exists in between "exploits" and "cheating" (which should be, and are discussed at length in other places). The unique trait of this state, is that it appears to be perfectly legal within the game's guidelines, and was, in fact, indended to be used. Yet it still bears a seemingly negative trait, which is ambiguously labeled: cheese...

In an effort to help people unfamiliar with this thing... this cheese.... I've made a list of things deemed unacceptable by the denizens of this board.

Please by all means, I encourage each and every one of you to contribute anything, and everything that I have missed, and I will miss something.

In no particular order of importance, I herebye present:

ArtEChoke's Irate 'Cheese' list

1. Use of a monk's Quivering Palm ability.
2. Use of a monk's Stunning Blow ability.
3. Use of a monk.
4. The use of Cloudkill, to in fact, kill something.
5. The use of Magic Resistance, or Reduce Resistance.
6. The use of Finger of Death spell.
5. Use of a thief's set trap ability.
6. Use of a thief's backstab ability.
7. Use of a thief.
8. Summoning monsters to delay a monster from eating your party.
9. Summoning monsters to kill enemies.
10. Summoning monsters.
11. Use of any magic whatsoever.
12. Use of any stragtegy other than charging headlong into combat.
13. Use of any spells, summoned monsters, or special abilities against a dragon.
14. Use of the bonus merchants (although we are currently spending millions in research, in an attempt to determine if this is actually a cheat - the debate rages on.)

That's all I can think of for now, please feel free to contribute! And remember, don't do any of the things in that list, its just NOT RIGHT!


[This message has been edited by ArtEChoke (edited September 05, 2001).]

 

Stir melted cheese in bowl for 2 mintues. Set out for 5 mintues to let cool...oh wait I mistook this topic for a thread on recipes

There may be cheesey tactics in these games but to what levels? Moderately Cheesy Monterey Jack or Extremely Cheesy Chedder?

 

Actually ArtE, my list of "cheese" would be:

1. A monk hero - overpowered coz of bugs class
2. Set trap ability always and everywhere - again overpowered coz of bugs and poor AI
3. All other BUGS that can be exploited, like stealing second Ring of Gaxx, killing own Pit Fiends for more XP, "fake-talk" etc...

All other things you mentioned I don't take as "cheese". If I took them, then what would I do in the game? Walking around and practising the sword only? Come on! Strange you haven't mentioned Boots of Speed in that list...

And no, I don't take Crom Faeyr a "cheese" because I worked for it very hard and explored every single inch of a game to find all "ingredients".
I'd take Carsomyr as "cheese" - you kill a dragon and got one of the best weapons in the game... Bah! Then again, I always sell that sword so I actually don't care if it could be considered a "cheese" or not.
All in all, I don't take usage of any weapon in the game is "cheese". Also I don't take usage of any spell as "cheese". Unless those weapons and spells are questionable additions...

IMHO, use of the bonus merchants is a major cheat, but if you already finished the game without it and want to see what is it all about - feel free to use it. Just don't tell me I'm an idiot for avoiding Robe of Vecna. I don't need it nor would use it, even if I cheated.

 

ArtE's exposition was likely in response to the "How to Avoid paying for the magic license" tread (or whatever it is called). I agree with your sarcasm whole-heartedly ArtE. Too many people brand normal tactics as Cheese or Cheats.

Obviously, exploiting a bug is a loser move (i.e. fake talk) if you care at all about about the *GAME*, but why does everyone rag on about traps so much? What use is a Bounty Hunter without traps? What is wrong with anticipating the path of someone and setting up for it?!?! If you want to talk about role playing, if this game were real, I sure as hell would try to ambush people rather than wait around and wade in like an oaf!

And E, I have to disagree with summoning your own beast for a kill being cheese. I think it is entirely plausible to want to test your own abilities, although repeated "tests" would be a loser move.

I guess, as the old saying goes, Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

 

What do you mean? I've never tried it, but all it amounts to is training. I think it's perfectly acceptable to train against summoned monsters - beats straw-filled dummies after all.

 

Training?

You must be pretty high level to summon Pit Fiend. So you call that "training"?
What's tutorial for?

And also, why don't you train on other of your summons - those that don't give XP?

Cut the crap, it is "exploit" and you know it.

 

What am I going to do with my sorcerer then!?!? Grap a Stick and try to hit Bodhi with it!?


Mind over matter I say, and I think magic is just fine!

 

Actually, the bonus merchants are implented in a ToB patch, so I don't think I would call them cheating (well some items at least )

 

You still have to pay for the items. That accounts for something!!! No pick-pocket/steal option with those two merchants.

On a scale of cheese maybe this is Swiss You have to look at the "hole" picture.

[This message has been edited by Big B (edited September 05, 2001).]

 

Did I read that right? We have the new solo challenge: a fighter with no armor and no weapons. I can't wait. I'll report back later.


Well maybe not.

 

An addition to your list: Stealing the Ring of Gaxx from Kangaxx. (hmmm I know that one's been debated before)

 

The bonus merchants are dubious at best. The Robe of Vecna is definitely cheese if not cheat. And how do most people pay for those items? Even those that do not use SK probably quaff five or six PoMT and steal/sell/steal/sell/steal/steal/steal/steal/sell/sell/sell/sell. That is one of the most Velveeta moves there is!

I still disagree with you, E, on the Pit Fiend thing. I would find it very boring to summon a couple of Rabid Dogs to fight, but do enjoy testing out new weapons or spell effects on something a little meatier – and what is cooler than a Fiend?

Again, however, repeated use is a little Velveeta for me too.

 

how can a thief be considered cheese? you still need to detect and disarm traps and pick locks regardless of the more cheesy abilities like pickpockets and set traps

 

>>>And also, why don't you train on other of your summons - those that don't give XP?

Cut the crap, it is "exploit" and you know it.<<<

I dont really agree with that, destroying a summoned demon from hell that attacks the party deserves experience.

I do believe that the spell doesnt really balance well with the game if you get my meaning. The idea of the spell is that it can be used as a last resort, bringing forth a demon that could rip the party to shreds if not protected from evil. The reality is that once your powerful enough to cast the spell (unless you use a scroll) a party member can despatch the pit fiend single handedly without getting hurt much at all.

Perhaps they should have designed the pit fiend so it is twice as powerful as the creature it is doing battle with each turn so that nomatter who is fighting it its just as powerful. Or summin like that anyway

 

Experience for summoned pit fiends was removed in the latest patch for ToB, I don't understand why they don't remove it for SoA as well. And since BI removed it, it must be a bug. The problem with gettign XP for it, is because you will start summoning it for XP instead of as mentioned, a last desperate resort.

To bad they didn't remove XP's for Glabrezu's as well in that patch.

 

In reply to the original post:
Here are my opinions

* Cheese:
- Quivering Palm.

* Cheese if used offensively:
- Magic Resistance (priest spell).

* Cheese in BG1/TotSC, but not BG2:
- Summon monsters to delay/kill enemy --- Cheese if you summon hordes with wands in BG1.

* Partly cheese:
- Monk --- Fists becoming magic weapons is a cheesy concept.
- Cloudkill and Set Traps --- Depends on how you use it.
- Use of bonus merchants --- Some items (especially Shield of Balduran) they sell are cheese.

* Not cheese:
- Lower Resistance (wizard spell).
- Stunning Blow.
- Finger of Death (comment: Both magic resistance and save allowed).
- Backstab.
- Thief.

* The rest of the points are ignorant, mindless babble (and obviously not cheese):
- Use of any magic.
- Use of a strategy.
- Use of spells, monsters or special abilities vs dragons.

[This message has been edited by Earl Grey (edited September 06, 2001).]

 

How odd that I find myself almost totally in agreement with Extremist on this topic.

When you exploit a game due to your cleverness as a gamer as opposed your cleverness as a character, you are essentially cheating. While the letter of the rules may not be breached, the spirit have been and that my friends is cheesey or dodgey or whatever phrase you like to name exploitive (sp) game play.
When you use foreknowledge that you as a gamer have that your character doesn't have to set up an encounter such that it has no chance of failure, you are using exploits.
When you use weak AI to gain advantage in an encounter where there is no chance of failure you are using exploits.

 

*Cheese:
Excessive use of traps (i.e. set traps, rest, set traps, rest...)
Using Potions of Master Thievery to steal incredibly valuable items from merchants (i.e. Symbol scrolls, Horrid Wilting scrolls, Imprisonment scrolls...)
Use of the Cheat Keys activated by the console (i.e. CTRL-Q)
Use of the Console: PERIOD. (Unless you're just checking Romance status.)
Use of a Monk's Quivering Palm technique.
Use of a thief's Pick Pockets ability to steal two Rings of the Ram, two Rings of Gaxx, etc...

*Partly Cheese
The use of the Stunning Attack technique.
The summoning of a demon to train. Total cheese when used repetitively.
The use of the spell combination: Improved Invisibility and Spell Immunity: Divination
The Robe of Vecna. It's only part cheese because it requires ~25,000-30,000 gp to pay for.
The use of a monk.

[This message has been edited by AvaLance204 (edited September 06, 2001).]