Ireland

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I saw last night the movie(It's more like a documentary, actually. But anyway.) "Bloody Sunday" and I wander what is your opinion about the situation in Ireland. I'm most interested in the British opinions.

I'll post my opinion later when I think more about it.

 

My opinion is, and i'm sorry if i offend anyone, the Irish need to open their eyes, maybe then they'll see that the dark ages are over. Catholics killing protestants and vice versa is not of this day and age anymore. It was quite common a couple of centuries back here in Europe, but people moved on, got educated, and at least stopped killing eachother over such ridiculous things. At least in most parts of Europe they did. Time must have stopped in Northern Ireland though, cause they still continue with the bloodshed.

 

They still continue with the bloodeshed because they are still oppressed.
I 'support' the Irish people. They fight for their rights. But this does not mean that I approve all of their actions. Violence is not a way to reach peace, but if the british army *wants* a war the Irish can do nothing but fight back.

 

The problem is that the Irish can't defend themself. IE the Irish uses military attack planes from the 50's and 60's and they will easely be destroyed by the English army. But I'll say, long live the Ireland Republic.

 

Ireland is a great country, very pretty. Somewhat spoiled by the pointless fighting over "God", I will admit, but nevertheless very nice. Guiness and Father Ted, things for which we should all be grateful. Unfortunately, a little too many boybands now, guys. Take a break. Play some guitars.

Ireland is not as good as Wales, either.

 

Alexander and Velve:

Since neither of you have the slightest idea of what you are talking about I suggest you both shut up.

You are really showing how much you DO NOT know here, not anything that you do.

1. Ireland is an independent country.
2. Nothern Ireland (or Ulster) is at the moment no more Ireland than Holland is Belgium or the USA is Canada.
3. The majority population of Northern Ireland is protestant not Catholic.
4. "They still continue with the bloodeshed because they are still oppressed." The people of Northern Ireland are all Northern Irish, it's not split between Irish and British! You don't have to be Catholic to belong in Ulster!
5. To say you support the armed struggle in Northern Ireland is the same as supporting terrorism anywhere else. These guys are scum who kill innocent people indiscriminately.
6. It may have escaped your notice that there is a peace plan in action with power sharing between all the political parties there?
7. Enough. Just stop making stupid statements like the ones above.

[Edited to remove offensive comment]

[ July 10, 2003, 13:25: Message edited by: Viking ]

 

Right you are, Viking, bash their heads in.

It is interestng to see that since Sinn Fein (the political "arm" of the IRA in Ulster) is working in the peace process, the protestant terror is increasing. The IRA gave up the armed fight, as far as I know. Okay, excluding that idiots from the "Real IRA".

 

@ Alexander

Oppressed ? Maybe that was once, but right now i think it's pretty safe to say that if there weren't any English soldiers in Northern Ireland, places like Belfast would be a nightmare to live in.

 

Anyway, I think the future holds a rise in loyalist terrorism. By they way, it's not primarily about religion.

And the battle of the Boyne celebrations keep one for the reasons of the union form 1806 fresh in mind, the strategical importance of Ireland for the national security of the neighbouring island. That is obsolete, like most reasons of the conflict, in my view.

By the way, god bless the BBC, my favourite newssource on the net.

[ July 09, 2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

Viking,

I did not say I support the armed struggle. I am against violence. Read better my previous post.

 

@Alex - He ment me. I support them as much as I support the Palestinians but that is another topic so I should do what Viking says, shut the **** up.

 

Alex, Verne is right there. The reference was to his statement.

Yago, there is of course no guarantee that even if the population of Ulster becomes a majority of Catholic descendants it would make a vote in favour of uniting Ireland a given.

And I do agree that the conflict is really not about religion anymore. Religion becomes an excuse for the violence, not the reason.

As to what I think of Ireland? Nice place. Nice people.

 

@Viking

Ireland is an island. The Republic of Ireland is an independent country but then Northern Ireland is not.
Most of your other points there are great. Apart from the one about the peace plan. Ever since the late 1800's there have been peace plans going on in Westminster. Around 1913 was a great example. There was a peace plan going on between the major Irish political party (can't remember its' name sorry) and the party who was in power at that stage. What happened to that? The Irish party faded away, to be replaced by more violence until Southern Ireland got partial independence.

@Fabius

The real IRA is the Irish Republican Army, which in other words it the army of the Republic of Ireland and as far as I know they are not directly involved in any terrorist attacks.
Sinn Fain, I thought, were extremists, they wanted to achieve independents by any means possible, including blood shed. Unless there policies have majorly (sp?) changed they are still involved in the attacks, are they not? I could be (and probably am) wrong here, because I don't know to much about modern Ireland conflict, and if so sorry. But I do know for sure most of the things I've said are completely right.

 

For most people here in the UK and in Eire itself, "Ireland" would mean the Republic.

 

RotKu: The "Real IRA" is a radical splinter group of the IRA which keeps on fighting. The IRA and Sinn Fein agreed on the peace process a few years back. IIRC, at the moment, the main obstacle are the protestant groups who do not want that any catholics take part in a regional government. And I think, the IRA agreed even to abandon its weapons.

 

Just some food for thought here. I have a good mate (I was his best man at his wedding) who is a Protestant born and raised in Northern Ireland. His family is Protestant but one of his brother in-laws is Catholic (and they all get along fine). He does not want Northern Ireland to become part of Eire. When questioned about it he mentions things like the economy, standards of living, being ruled by a government with Catholic ideals. He approves of the peace process but is happy for NI to be under the control of Westminster.

My current girlfriend is a Catholic born and raised in Northern Ireland. She thinks of herself as Irish and holds two passports (British and Irish). She approves of the peace process. She would like Ireland and Northern Ireland to be all one country under an Irish Government. She does not hold any particular anti-British feelings and her two sons (from her first marriage) are both British.

I have another friend who served in the Bomb Disposal arm of the Army in Northern Ireland. He hates the kind of people who plant bombs in places where they will kill lots of civilians. He would quite like Westminster to give NI to Eire and not have any more to do with the place. He especially wished they could have done it before he had to go and risk his life on a regular basis protecting civilians in NI from unexploded bombs.

I have tended to regard the troubles in Ireland as limited to a very small minority and wonder why so many people get fired up over religion and politics. I thought both the versions of christianity were supposed to 'forgive thy neighbour' and think most people are unhappy with their government at times (I know I am). It's not as if the British Government is a heartless civic rights abusing dictatorship (although the Gulf War 2 makes me wonder). However, on my trips to Ireland I have been amazed at just how passionate people are about their political/religous stance. Driving around Belfast can be quite intemidating.

Anyway, the other food for thoughts points are. Both of the poeple I told you about have been happily living in England for 10 plus years. I have always been made very welcome when visiting their families in NI. The Troops referred to earlier have been withdrawn since the end of 1998.

Ireland is a very difficult problem to resolve and you can't simply try to call it a case of the British opressing the poor Irish (as some people would like you to believe) while forgetting the views of the majority of people who live there.

These might be of interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/northern_ireland/10657.stm

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/ireland/history.htm

 

That second link you gave seemed to be one sided. I'm sure that the Protestants and British did worse things than that makes out. It seems to go into great detail about ever little thing the IRA does but not about the other sides actions.

Wheres an attack made by the Ulster Volunteers:

This site does (IMO) seem to be one sided. The other site does seem to be better but doesn't go into much detail.
None of those sites mentioned has anything about events later than 1998.

 

Yep, I'm sure the BBC link is biased towards the British perspective. However, I just wanted to show that the situation is not as clear cut as some people seem to think. There are people on both sides blowing people up and I think they are wrong to do so. Unfortunately though, there is no solution to Ireland that will keep everyone living there happy (though handing it over to Eire would probably be the easiest option for the British Governement). To claim that the British are to blame and that the simple solution is for them to hand everything over to Eire is to misunderstand the complexities of the situation and the views of the vast majority living in Northern Ireland.

To give you an example closer to home, why don't all the European decended people in New Zealand get out of the country or at least hand over power to the indegenous population?

PS if anyone what's to find some less biased links or anything that details events after 1999, be my guest. I struggled to find anything.

 

All i can say is that someday the people of Ireland must realize that they will either live united and in a peacefull enviroment forgetting all the differencies they exist or they will live totally separated not having the chance to travel in their own island freely but still live peacefully.
I do believe that this situation resembles the situation in Cyprus where the real problem is who will have the control ( Turks or Greeks, Greeks are the majority)not who is threatened and by whom.
And the whole time these guys play their little games the simple folk is full of problems that are more signifigant than religion or any other idealistic bull***** the politicians or nation leader present as a crisis factor

 

The ironic thing is that Ireland is already united. Because both are EU members, there is no border between the north and the south. The only hint that you crossed the broder is that road-signs signaling destinations change from Gaelic to English.