how can a loving God and evil co-exist?

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Wow...been a long time since I visited this thread, and there certainly has been a lot of discussion. Good points, too, from everyone. Grey did mention a couple of posts ago that we had moved the goalposts...looks more like we've erected about a dozen .

I've spent a lot of time writing stuff, and never have provided the answer, so I'm going to try to wrap it all up in a very short and concise way. So, buckle your seatbelts...the Christian response as to "How a loving God and Evil can co-exist"

Evil exists, it is not God's creation, rather the fruit of the use of free-will by both angels and men. Those times of rebellion and disobedience are the moments when evil gained a foothold in the world. God can not stop the evil, not because he lacks the power to do so, but to stop it would circumvent and deny the free-will he had given to his creatures. If God is perfect, God can not change, he is consistent. If God were to step down from heaven, and singlehandly stop every action of evil or injustice, it would be a denial of his own divinity.

I can't imagine what it would be like if God were to strip us of our free-will, and make us all be good...it would rock the very roots of creation...THAT would be the tyrant God that Shura speaks of. Remember, the goal is not to live well in this world, but die well. That sort of false utopia that you critics seem to think that God is obliged to give us, if he really loved us, sounds like the makings for a "B" grade sci-fi/horror movie...kind of an illusory good thing...a perfect little happy world...a world that is still transient and passing...but no eternity...God had abandoned his divinity and heaven to become ruler of a physical world.

Don't you see how it would all fall apart? Now the creator is subject to his creation...we screw up our free-will, so God has to change. That would be no God at all. In the answer to the question about the jumper on the roof...no it is not Gods responsibilty to stop the action, it is Gods place to keep his word and provide a means for us to reconcile ourselves to him during this short time called life. I, as an observer, have a duty to exercise my free-will to attempt to save the person. There will be hands pushing the mattress into place, but they will be the hands of man, not the hands of God.

 

Uh, didn't God stole the free will from the Egyptian Pharaoh?

 

So thinks that he has done the best he can and the rest is up to us? Is that what you are saying? That is an all-loving all caring god? "Hey, I created you! Now fend for yourself, suit yourself if you screw up. Oh, you couldnt logicall accept the ramblings of some desert nomad 4000 years ago as divine truth? Tough luck, no nice afterlife for you."
I also wonder where free will (which is a great tool to blame everything on and still keep faith) plays in with little Timmy born with a fatal disease. I would say that to be something rather evil where the free will of man has nothing to do with. Unless you blame it on Eve munching on that apple in paradise and thus condemning us all. Whis isnt very fair in my opinion.

I think that everyone should be able to think and believe what they want even if it bugs me a bit but I am a staunch supporter of what Grovflab said in the neighbouring thread. The god you talk about Hacken Slash seems to me to be a petty, jealous, arrogant, narrowminded entity.

Ahk, sorry for my rant, religion is one of the things that really gets me going. The bane of humanity and the ravager of this world.

 

I have not had the benefit (or the time) to completely read through this post, so bear with me....

But the idea recently presented was that God wants so desperately to allow us to have free will that he completely leaves us alone and allows us to make our own decisions, our own mistakes. That a God that would strip us of our free will, of that part of our minds, would be almost something evil in itself (himself?), even if what we were recieving was paradise.
So why is it that in the dawn of man, we were placed in a garden that was heaven on earth and told to not have any free will... and that the act of free will, in fact, would make us lose what we hadn't earned in the first place? How can that be the ultimate paradise then and the ultimate unwanted now, and how is it that a God that did that once was merciful and kind and loving, but if he did it again, would be a 'tyrant god'. He did it once. I don't know if I can see what's changed.

 

OK, Three against one...that's not fair...that means someone's bound to hit me from behind! What's worse, I've now gone and implicated myself in two different religion based threads...I feel like Napolean in Russia! How bout I start one new thread called "Convert or Die, pig" and we'll all go over there and duke it out
For any of you who don't know that I am kidding, I AM KIDDING! Please don't take the wrong idea.

First things first, let me get a few things straight. I have always been very careful to state that what I am talking about is the Christian answer for why there is evil in the world. I have never told anyone that they need to believe it, in fact I had an interchange with Shura about 50 posts ago where I described my view concerning who and who was not going to hell. Rather than repost here, scroll back and talk a look at it. I don't look down on anyone for what they believe, and as non-Christians I can certainly understand your rage at what has been done to innocents in the name of religion. I understand how you feel, have felt it myself, and feel you have no need to apologize for anger. I am not here to try to change the way you think, only to explain how I do. It seems ironic that the only people saying "you're wrong" are the non-Christians to the Christian.

Second, I have never in any of my posts fallen back on the pointless defense that it is either "a matter of faith" or that "God says so". I would never do that to someone, as I have had it done to me by so-called Christians in my life. That is no answer, and I would not insult your intelligences by using it. Don't insult mine by claiming that's what I have done, simply because my faith is a factor in my life. For any of you to claim that I always come back to an issue of faith is as asinine as me using the converse point against you. In other words, don't do to me as you accuse me of doing to you.

Finally, each of you raises questions that could and should be answered with thorough and detailed answers, unfortunately I don't have the time to do so. I will be forced to answer in relatively quick fashion...such being the case...do not assume that the answer I give is all that could be given. The non-Christians outnumber the Christians on these boards by a significant ammount, as is evidenced by my last post being answered by three questions...but I will do my best...

Morgoth...I assume that you are referring to the story of the Exodus, and in particular the statements that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" after each subsequent plague brought upon Egypt? If that is what you ask about, then no, God did not control or manipulate the King of Egypt...but on the converse, God did not stop him from being influenced by the whispers of evil spirits or the own pride of his heart. There are even more recent translations or interpretations of that verse that go more to the effect of "God allowed Pharaoh to harden his heart"...more in keeping with the notion of free-will. You could bring up endless arguements about whether God intervened in this instance or that in a fabled antiquity , but that has little relevance to the world we are in today.

Joacqin, my friend, and I do mean that. You stated

This is not what I have said, nor what God has said. True, our first parents made a mess for all of us with their failure to obey in an exercise of free-will, but God has not left us bereft. We have legions of prophets to remind us that God loves us and wants us to turn back to him, most of whom were ridiculed at best, stoned at worst. We have his own Son, sent to die for us, so that through that one perfect sacrifice, we could all regain our place as sons and daughters of God. We have Martyrs and Saints whom we can look toward for example and inspiration. We have the scriptures, the Bible, that provides a unique insight into God's plan for all of mankind. And finally we have a Church. A beaten, battered, divided Church...a Church that has been influenced at times by men for their own misguided ideals or lust, that has done wrong at various times in history, but nevertheless still teaches and holds secure the simple truths of God's will for man. In spite of the failings of men, of the divisions that have occurred, the wounds that have been dealt by the hand of those who seemed to control it...the Church still can proclaim truth because Christ promised that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it". We have not been left alone, Joacqin.

You also ask about "little Timmy", born with a fatal disease...I must confess that this is a subject that I have personally had to struggle with in the past. I don't, I am sorry to say, have an answer that you are neither going to like nor appreciate, but it is all I have come up with. I have been able to develop a rough understanding of it from being on the Christian perspective looking out, so probably it will mean little to you. Without getting into the whole notion of pain or suffering of innocents in the world, let me just say that it all comes down to an understanding that what we feel, endure, suffer or face in this world is insignificant. Just as the worldly accomplishments of this existence turn to dust, so does the sorrow and suffering. The Christian perspective trains our minds to value what we experience after this fleeting time is over, to look past this place which will always have death, disease and suffering. We are bound to do all we can to end suffering in this world (YAY, Mother Teresa!!!), but we will never end it. As Jesus said, "The poor will always be with you". What's most important to "little Timmy" is that you and I not fight over who's God or humanistic ideals caused his state, but to work tirelessly to curb his suffering and to ease the pain of his grieving parents.

Dragon's Jewell...welcome to the fray. I can well understand your reticence to read all of these posts, being as you probably have some semblance of a life . I think that I have already covered your question in my response to Joacqin, but if not PLEASE post again to ask.

OK. That's it. Before Tal bans me for run-on posts. Again, I'm not here to attack what you believe, only to tell you how I believe. Best to you all.

 

Having read all of these, I'm still unconvinced.

I can no longer be bothered to debate further because no real Christian can be turned from their faith, no matter how misplaced it is through a msg board. (Being exposed IRL to my corrupting influence is a different matter though. Score: one Muslim, two Catholics. No more 'god' for them. )

Even if the day of Judgement comes and Jesus does stand before me, no way I'm going to call him 'lord'. An eternity of burning is preferable. At least I get to keep my dignity and pride.

No offense to the Christians but your 'god' still seems like a more evil, petty monster than I can ever be.

Go your way, and I'll go mine.

 

Peace be with you Shura. At least we can still discuss CRPG's, right?

 

Hacken Slash

You did make some vaild points, but in reference to your first one, saying you are giving "Christian answer for why there is evil in the world" is a lot like saying there is just one flavor of ice cream. With all the diffferent "flavors" of Christianity, there goes many different answers to evry question.

On the second point, I did go back to read your posts, and you did not say "God says so", but you do seem to imply that God seems to have the attitude of a little child who played with a toy, He created Man and then put him to the side to not "play" with him again. Just left him to fend for himself, justified with the concept of Free Will. Now, if He really did wish to leave Man to let him do as he chose, then all His interactions in the Old Testament do not make a lot of sense. Would he have not said, its up to the Hebrews to free them selves from Eygptian slavery? Would he have tested Abraham's faith by asking him to sacrafice his only son? The Old Testament is full of instances of God having a direct hand in the events of Man, including his telling Man what to do or not to do. The Great Flood is also another example. God was not happy with Man's free will there of how he lived, so he flooded the world, except for a select few who believed as he did. Now does Free Will exist only as ong as the Free Will proceeds along with what God feels is the right path?

I would also like to say that Joacqin and Dragon's Jewel both made very good and eloquent statements on this issue.

***steps off his soap box***

 

Cyrano, I'm honored...your first post just to refute me. Welcome to SP, hope you post some more. I've only been here a short while myself, and have found it much fun to exchange views with people all over the world. Hope you enjoy your time here.

OK, goes down hill from here ...you mentioned the different "flavors" of Christianity...I am well aware of that, and have remarked about it in more remorseful tones in a couple of my posts. Unfortunately, we aren't discussing matters that tend to be the litmus test that divides Christianity, we are discussing fundamental principles that are held by any person who calls themself a Christian. On a few instances I may have let a bit of my "flavor" show, but the basis of what I have said is held by all Christianity. It's not like we're discussing the role of faith in salvation, the authority of the Church, the place of scripture, the meaning of the Lord's Supper, the priesthood, the abuse of indulgences....I could go on, but you I'm sure you get my point. I have a feeling that if I was misstepping the bounds of the general faith, then some of the other local Christians (mat, grey, big b, chev, et al) would have popped in to correct me (OK, now guys, keep your mouths shut and don't make me look like a fool ).

You also said,

This has been a response, at least as far as modern man is concerned, that I have previously addressed with

Concerning the actions of God, as described in the Hebrew scriptures, I have commented that

I have intentionally avoided diverting to this subject, as it has no direct relevance to the original thread topic. The stories of the Old Testament can be a fascinating portrayal of Yaweh, and the interactions of God with a chosen people...but typically do little to help the anguish of people like Late-Nite Thinker, who began this thread. If you'd like to discuss that, start a new thread and I'll be happy to join you.

Maybe it would be best for all of you to simply say that you don't agree with me, that you think I'm wrong, that nothing I can say will change your mind...than try to base objections on what you perceive me to have said, or not said.

I made a remark earlier that I thought was significant, but has not been noted...the only people who are expending energy saying someone is wrong, are the non-Christians to the Christian. I have condemned no belief, rather sympathized with all, even the extreme view of Shura, who strangely I feel so much in common with.

Perhaps that would be the best path for all to follow, rather than jousting with windmills?

 

Hate to pipe up again, but I'd take the contentment and peace that can be offered rather than dignity or pride. What's so great about defying God if your afterlife is an eternity away from Him (/Her)?

 

I have read through some of the posts and all I can say is that I am confused. This answeres nothing. Too much philosophy, somehow. Too far away from life.

Its not my beliefe that God, if he ever existed, has to make me happy, guide me, make my life one big party or has to take the blame for the tragedies of (my) life.
Only I am responsible for the things that I do, as well as for the major part of the course that my life may take. I will never blame any of my actions (good or bad) on a higher force. Nor will I ever try to justify them by mentioning the will, "plan" or existence of some God. Thats SO yesterday, IMO. No offense.
Guess that is what people here and other places refer to when speaking of the "free will".
(BTW: I have heard this free will thing is an illusion: We want what we do, not do what we want. But that would be genetics.)

If something terrible (evil??) happens to me or others around me then there are two reasons for this: a) Its biology, an illness for example b) Someone chose not to be good. There may even be the blind forces of coincidence, when thinking about accidents. What has God to do with this? Nothing?

Anyway, one has to be a source of goodness oneself, no one else, especially not God (thats only avoiding responsibility) and I dont feel a need for God in that respect. I do good things, because I feel its right and because it makes me feel good and pleased with myself.
That is how I think of God/Gods in general: Not some mysterious & vague, omnipotent divine being that OTHERS try to convince me of - yeah, as if they knew any better than I do. Sure. And not only that, they also tell me how to live my life to please this "divine being"; I totally agree with Shura and Joacin (sp?) in the matter of monotheistic religions and their tendency towards fundamentalism and dogma.
No, its something inside me and everyone else. This world wont become any better by people clinging to God and expecting him to save us - only we can do that by making the right choices. Quite simple. Maybe overly simple but then I am, too.

A year ago I saw something that took away my rather weak faith once and for all. I saw a man having his throat slit on TV. Happened during the Kosovo conflict or maybe Chechnya (sp?). You may think me naive and I know that even worse things happen out there. Sure, I have heard of them, but never have I seen anything like this!! I was utterly shocked - for days. And after I finally managed to push that attrocity and the face of the desperately crying man to the back of my mind I knew: If God let things like that happen, then I can NEVER expect any help from him/her/it/them. I will have to rely on myself and the goodness that I know exists in human kind. At least I hope so.

Rant over Please, if you think my view is absurdly flawed - be gentle! I only tried to explain my way to handle things.

[ November 12, 2003, 18:49: Message edited by: Dendri ]

 

I never really had faith...I never had a reason for it. Im one of the "when i see it I'l belive it" people.

 

When you understand God as good and evil as the absence of God, it all becomes much more clear.

 

Well said