Does belief make something a fact?

Remove all ads!

Mithrantir, uh...the passage in question (Matthew 8:5-13) says explicitly that the Roman centurion is saved because of his faith in Christ, not his caring for the servant (verse 10). And Christ immediately follows this up (verses 11-12) to say that quite a few would not enter paradise.

As for the idea that the gospels are not in their original form, or that there are other gospels...I think this only further emphasizes Chris Williams' point. If you walk away from cold, calculating rationality, you end up filling your mind with all sorts of superstitious nonsense. But this ain't the place for a thorough discussion of lower criticism (check http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000519;p=2 if you're really interested).

The American Episcoplians do it right - they acknowledge that their newfound endorsement of homosexuality is unbiblical, but say that a) the Bible is wrong, and b) the Holy Spirit is guiding them to new revelation. It's more rational to take the Bible as it is - the best-attested manuscript in the ancient world - and then decide whether it's true or false, rather than pretending the book is "missing" the parts you wish were included or has "extraneous material" that was snuck in later by sneaky churchmen.

[EDIT: I mentioned specific examples which the moderator warned me could be considered hostile comparisons by those who don't hold my beliefs. The moderator is right, and the examples have been removed. So my apologies - I may be a zealot, but I don't mean to flame anyone, honest!]

[ November 30, 2003, 05:17: Message edited by: Grey Magistrate ]

 

I say no. And so does the Bible. Faith is a means to an end, a tool, but it is not the actual power behind the spirit world or odd occurences.

I apologize for only breezing over the other comments. I hope I'm not repeating anything others may have said.

There is a sort of thing we call "faith" that is a part of how God reveals himself. There's faith to believe in God, but then there's the spiritual gift we also call "faith", faith to obtain miracles and such. It only takes a small amount of this faith to do great things--Jesus said people could throw mountains around if we had only a little bit.

It's this sort of "I think it and it happens" that we are discussing. The God of the Bible claims to have this sort of power. Those of you who read Marvel comics may remember the Beyonder, a deity-like character who was defeated because while he had "faith" to create things from his thoughts, he didn't have self-control, so he imagined being defeated and so he was.

If I believe there is a monster next to me, I may poop in my pants--my belief created something stinky, in that case. So obviously, mis-belief can have consequences. And so can belief.

But again, the answer is no. From my understanding, faith is a means that God channels his power through, not a super-secret power to bend reality.

 

Damn It. I have not read the previous posts in this topic, but this is still my answer, no matter what other people might say/believe!

Simply put, there is no freaking god(s)! Noone but you is responsible for you actions! There is no destiny! Life is what you make it to be, for better or worse, but there will be no divine being in the end to evaluate your way of living. This may be a hard truth for many, but that simply is how life is!

As for the whole belief thing, then the whole population of the world could tell me that some gods exist, and still they would be wrong. If you get one billion people to believe 2+2 is 5, the correct answer would still be four!

 

You see, that's the common mistake of folks who object to the existence of God on scientific grounds. For them there's no god, so they treat it as a pure 0/1 boolean fact, much like 2+2=4. In fact, they project their belief (faith, essentially) on reality, much like believers generally do.

Therefore, basically, the concept of no deity and no judgement of the dead is faith to a no lesser extent than any religious faith. There's no absolute proof for that and it relies on belief. Assigning such qualities as weak will, weak mind, poor intelligence, lack of wisdom etc to those who don't share this view is quite common, but in its nature it doesn't differ from religious fanaticism that this belief's adherents claim to fight against.

Even such seemingly serious and logical people as scientists tend to forget that a commonly shared opinion is not yet a fact, and that there's no proof through belief. Ironically, they're much like priests in their religious and sometimes militant atheism. What do they say? They say: it's truth, you must accept it. Believe us for we say so and we know that we are true. What else do missionaries say? When you have doubts, they will encourage you to put the doubts aside and take their word on things. So what else is faith about?

 

no belief doesnt make somthing fact

but i do beileive you cant have one without the other

Belief and fact are two very similar things.Without belief something cannot be fact.
for example,a water cannot boil unless it is beleived that boiling is a increase of the temperature of water to 100 degrees C

so hopefully you can see that beleif and fact go hand in hand with each other

 

Ok then, I only read half the first page, and here is what I believe.

I believe that everyone should stop speculating over their own existance and the existance of everything else in the universe or multiverse or planes or whatever.

I believe that if you believe you exist and everyone that see's and meet's you everyday belives you exist then you exist.

I believe that it is only yourself and the people that you mix with that anybody should care about. As long as you have your health your wealth your happiness and your kinships and friendships that that is all that should matter to you.

I believe that we all have the right and the freedom to belive whatever we want whenever we want.

I believe that you are all dwelling too damn much on things we have no answer or explanation for and not thinking enough about the most important thing to yourself. You, the people your familier with and your good health.

I believe that it is the moment that matters most of all with second place going to the not too distant and distant future, and third, your past and how that it will shape your life.

To finish off I belive that life is too short too dwell overmuch on anything at all, and with what I've lost not long ago I know all about it

In closing enjoy life, because one day there WILL be a time when NONE of us exist (I'm speaking in terms of wether or not there is air running through your lungs or not) and by then it's way too late for anyone to do anything. take everything with a measure of seriousness and fun, and try and enjoy life as much as possible

And I believe "if you don't like it I believe you can go to hell because you won't be going anywhere else" (heh sorry I couldent resist adding that quote from the matrix )

[ November 30, 2003, 18:52: Message edited by: casey ]

 

Don't know what your loss is Casey, but you seem to offer soom real insights...but this discussion of faith vs. reality is much like others of it's ilk...it challenges the human mind to think outside the box and expand. It is never a waste of time to question matters of existence and reality...only when those questions and mental excursions occlude ones ability to function in society do they become counterproductive. If I were to employ your rationale, there would never be any study of Theology, Philosophy or Logic...that aside, there is truth in much of what you say.

Grey, you stated some time ago that the hyper-real world existed to you in reality, as your faith is real (paraphrase...having trouble with my comp., and don't want to risk trying to cut and paste). I am on the exact same page as you, although not being Protestant I might take a slightly different slant on the role of Faith in our lives. I agree that this hyper-real world is actually very real, and I have always been able to gain an understanding of anything that seemed inexplicable, and provide an answer "why" from my life of faith. We are both being fitted with the same straight jacket, my friend. I was only trying to speak as genericaly as possible to try to reconcile all sides, and to show that Manus, et al, saw the same hyper-real world that you and I do, only accounted for it differently.

@Drogo...looks like you are combining definition with belief. Water is defined, under the SI, to boil at 100C. If the compound, water, were to experience an elevation of temperature it would undergo a phase change to vapor at some point...whether I believed that point to be 100C, 212F or 373K is irrelevant. I don't think that you have discussed belief as much as "observation of phenomena".

I know I haven't added much new to the fray, but my stand is much the same as it was before. Since science can never quantify the power of faith, faith will never be regarded as a reality, as much as the empirical measurement of temperature would be. If you choose to disregard the effect of faith or belief in you life, you will adopt a view of reality that is devoid of a hyper-reality. You will be left to scratch your head as you stumble over explainations for the inexplicable, as you accept only the physical world. If you employ the "reality" of faith, if you accept a slightly broader understanding of our world, the presence of "the power of belief" will become more apparent, as is represented by orthodox views such as Grey's or New Age views as testified by Manus.

So, to take a long response and make a short answer..."Does belief make something a fact"...the answer is YES, but ONLY if you believe.

 

@Hacken slash I'm not trying to suggest otherwise I'm trying to say that though it is interesting it never really DOES anything useful for you at least in my expiriance.

I feel that what was, is past and can't be changed, and since what will be is often at best difficult to predict, that to me means that what is, is the most important thing to worry about. All the haves and have not's and all that.

You could just say that I'm a "live the moment" type of guy and depending on what the moment was I'll ask questions later

 

I have read the gospels, i have talked with priests and people who believed but serched and they always said the same thing. Because the gospels were written later than the time these things happened, nad were written by people who always perceived things not the same-necessarily- point of view or perception of the incident, the text had some parts, that to be "reformed" or changed or left out, in order to present a more unified image. Furthermore, i speak for my religion (Greek Orthodox) only and the priests i have spoke with, there were more gospels with not "reliable" content. These gospels were excluded from the formal and accepted by the church, as well as some other beliefs and attitudes that were tottaly accepted at the beginning of this cult we call Christianity.
Now this thing blends here too, since the handle of natural and supernatural has been in the hands of religion maybe for too long. And now church has become something like a coorperation and people start not to believe. Not to believe to what though? All of us need something to believe in as human beings. It is the fundmental need to beleive to set a cause, to love, to find an explanation.
Everyone makes his own choice and he lives with it. He goes by a philosophy of life untill this proofs the wrong way to follow.
And then this guy/woman would do what? Think of this like a it was you.

 

Yes Chris, there have been many many scientific studies with many controlled variables and large test groups that have led to repeatedly conclusive results about these phenomena (psychic abilities especially; precognition, telepathy, and clairvoiyance and clairaudience mostly -most armies in World War II employed psychics to describe enemy bunkers and give intel on bases, if you go read the reports I ask you to explain how else they could have done such things) there have also been extensive tests on telekenesis, such as bending or moving objects, and stopping the hearts of frogs, again, go read the research. I doubt the frogs all simultaneously were scared to death or something.

Besides, I have family members that are psychic, I don't need evidence, I can see it any time I ask them.

As to the healing, no, faith healing is not the type I employ, and it has been tried by others who have been initiated and doubt their abilities, to heal those who are thoroughly skeptical (outright believing that it will not work) and it has, worked I mean. You can feel the heat, and various other physical sensations anyway, so it's not like "I got better anyway", you can feel the effects as they work. It has been tested in other forms as well, on things that will never get better by themselves (even over such a short period of time, I'm talking 10-30 minutes here), such as purifying water, re-charging batteries to full capacity, and other things which can be scientifically verified, if that's what will convince you. If you can come up with another half-cocked explanation for this I'd like to hear it.

I'm not limiting my explanations to these examples, I am just citing a few reports that came to mind to give a couple of general examples. As to the other abilities (and they are many and varied indeed -in no way limited to psi phenomena and healing- if you can think of something, I can find an account from someone who claimed to have done it) they are usually only on personal testimonies. If you choose to believe that all these people throughout history are either liars or just plain ignorant, that is your choice, but how else would you explain the above-mentioned examples?

I know that my tone has been heated, but I think you may one day appreciate how frustrated I have become when people constantly either point to an obvious charlatan, or cite -with nothing beside their own opinion- that there is no evidence or even that there are no un-proved examples of these things, and I, therefore, am a fool. A fool I may be, but on this I do have the broader knowledge, and wider range of experience, and I believe myself to be correct. If one speaks up wiser than myself (and I make no claim to being wise) I will concede their point, but you have obviously not even considered the possiblity that you are wrong, seriously in any case, or else you may have researched these things further. It is true, we all who assert such a position may be mistaken, but we are on no more of a stage of faith than any other, less so, because history, and indeed modern scientific evidence, are on our side, not the other. Even were it that another explanation is the cause, and not my own, there is still a plethora of recorded events which are explained only by my definition, not yours.

Finally, casey, we all think about these things to our own benefit, I can assure you, my own health and indeed, my life, would be no-where near such a high level if I had not given serious thought to such matters. There is little else better to occupy our spare time, in truth, I have a good deal more respect for a man who lives a simple life and gives mindfulness to everything, than one who lives only to enjoy, or whatever else his goal may be- to his, and those around him's, ineviatable detriment. It is a shame to watch the pursuits of some, and these things are no exception- if one thinks but does not live these things, then that one is wasting a good deal of opportunity.

 

This topic has covered a lot of ground. but back to the original question.
The primary force, creator, god, or whatever would exist no matter what I beleive simply because he/she/it is the primary or beginning source.
The subject now seems to be whether or not the "mind" has powers. ESP is real. I've experienced it.

But please there are other befliefs besides Christianity. More people belive in some sort of supreme being then don't. Does not mean one exists. I can't prove to someone that one exists but they can't prove to me that one desn't. This universe just exploded into being with out any first cause?