Iraqis tortured - truly despicable

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Muslim 'torture' backlash

This is truly, and utterly despicable. The fact is that a few "weekend warriors" have put the chance for success in Iraq in jeopardy. I mean no disrespect to those who volunteer in the Reserves and National Guard with my use of the term weekend warrior. The vast majority of them would never do something like this, and I have a great deal of respect for them and the job they do, but as the saying goes, one rotten apple ruins the bushel.

In another report a soldier was claiming that they had no training, no instruction, and had never read the Geneva Conventions. So what! Anyone would know that this is inhumane and unacceptable.

There is no excuse for this behavior. It is unbecoming to professional soldiers, and that is part of the problem: these people were not professionals. The fact that we have reduced our military to the point at which we have to depend on reserves and National Guardsmen to serve long term in these types of actions is going to lead to more bad things. These people are frustrated at being stuck over there for so long, and their actions are starting to show it. IMO, the fact that they took trophy pictures of this behavior shows that they have no business being there, and that they are not being utilized for what they are trained for. Professional soldiers with full time officers who understand their role might still do something like this, but it is far less likely.

Regardless, the behavior of this small group of soldiers will cost the coalition, and the Iraqis, a heavy cost before this issue is completely settled, if it ever is.

 

Yeah, just heard of it from TV. Proves that US is just practicing regular, imperialistic assimilation there. Nothing special.

(And no, that wasn't a bash; just a fact. )

 

That is what happens in war. Nice, good, decent normal men and women commit atrocities without even thinking twice about it. This is why I think war is more or less never the answer, this is what it does to people and I pity both the victims and the perpetrators.

Put ten regular people in a war zone and pretty soon they will figuratively speaking be eating fried baby for dinner. War removes peoples humanity, thousands of years of socialisation is erased in a matter of months and normal humans degenerate into murderers, rapist and torturers.

 

Hm. Put some regular people under extraordinary pressure, and eventually the seams will begin to burst, it seems. A small part of me can understand that under the tremendous stress of risking your life day in and day out, you will be driven to do things that you would never even concieve of otherwise, as is the case here.

Another, far larger part of me, realizes that there are thousands of other people there who would never even consider such an atrocity. Hopefully these psychos will feel the full weight of military justice quickly. There is no excuse a person could make for conduct such as this, especially when one considers how damaging it is to the peace process in the region.

 

Well, this is more evidence that the Administration has spread its military resources too thin. Whether people agree with the war or not, I think most people would agree this is reprehensible.

Unfortunately, as Darkwolf implies, this is what the rest of the Muslim world will now believe (if they didn't already think so).

 

It's things like this that make me wonder if war is really the way to go. The atrocities that occur with people in authority turning a blind eye make me sick.

The depths to which humanity can sink never ceases to amaze me.

 

Yes, because the soldiers were ordered to torture Iraqis and aren't going to be punished in any way, shape or form, and as such, these actions show exactly what you said.

 

The only thing worse than an atrocity is a purposeless atrocity.

They say that the only thing a soldier should fear more than the enemy is his commanding officer. Maybe these fellas need a reminder. I think it's time to make a public example of these scum to instill fear in the hearts of the soldiers and Iraqis.

 

Have you folks heard of the Stanford Prison experiment?

there's some research to support the claims you folks are making about how "normal, decent" people flip out stressful situations.

It's not just war and stress that causes it, but power differentials.

As an aside, the Israeli police have been doing similar things to "suspects" for years.

 

[snip]

[ Offensive content removed. Warning pending. ] - Beren

[ May 01, 2004, 06:00: Message edited by: Beren ]

 

Ha, there will never be any success.

Anyway, if I was in Iraq getting shot and 24/7 and watching my friends being blown to bits I would get seriously pissed off, wouldn’t you? I would think torturing these folks would make me feel a whole lot better. Anyway this is hardly torture my friends. Most of these prisoners deserve far worse.

 

i agree with the other sarevok
and i think we should just nuke the middle east and half of the worlds problems will dissappear

 

I dont think that nuking them will solve the problem. Also, if you believe in such a thing, What makes you any better than they are? Commiting such heinous acts shows that we are no better than terrorists and petty thugs. Why not just nuke us and be done with it in that case?

 

@Sarevok 435: You realize, that by that logic you could just nuke the US and half the world's problems would disappear too, right? Takes two sides to fight, after all.

Sure, you could make the argument that US soldiers would be rather fed up with "insurgents" attacking and harassing you 24/7. Well, newsflash: The US invaded their country. What did they think would happen? Children strewing flower petals in front of coalition soldiers? If a foreign power invaded MY country, even if it was to oust a corrupt regime, I wouldn't want them to hang around either. The Iraqi people are sending an obvious message: You did what you came to do, now kindly **** off and let us rebuild our country. The foreign power torturing Iraqi people would hardly help matters out any.

 

Well, so much for a reasonable discourse regarding this issue.

Seeing what I started, I now wish I hadn't, as my name will forever be associated as the person who started this.

Someone put me out of my misery on this one and lock it so that it will quickly slink to the bottom of the postings and hopefully everyone will soon forget it.

joacqin and Shazam, thanks for trying. I don't agree with everything that was said, but at least your posts were more than just vitriol.

 

The thread is like 1 hour old man chill out. Who wants to be bored with this kind of thing anyway? Every day there is like 3 threads concerning Iraq or war or killing or something. Can’t we all talk about fun stuff instead of negative ****?

 

@Darkwolf

Perhaps I can return this thread toward your original intent

I think that the message is already clear...poorly trained reserve forces, who are not regular army, being thrust into a position that was never intended in the terms of their enlistment.

Due to the reductions in budget for conventional forces (by Liberals in Congress, mind you) this conflict has seen a greater use of NG and reserve forces in combat zones than any war previous.

These are the guys and gals who worked the snack bar at Wal-Mart last week, and as a result of their enlistment in the National Guard to help make the payment on the trailer...they find themselves thrust into the quagmire that is Iraq.

The Commanders know that if in a combat arena, these weekend warriors would essentially be cannon fodder...so they get put to work guarding the prisoners. The rest is available on the evening news.

I'm not making an excuse for their actions...investigate...try before the UCMJ...and show the world that the US will not tolerate this kind of treatment of POW's. Please remember, all of you, that this event is an isolated incident...and the treatment that the perpetrators will receive in this instance will help to insure that it stays that way.

The answer? Hire and train more regulars...give them decent pay...and ALL Americans honor them for the service they give our country.

Is that better, Darkwolf?

 

Yeah, it is rough on the reservists. My college buddy got snarfed up by the Navy, and is now in Kuwait sucking down refinery fumes (and I thought LA air quality was bad!)

This guy needs to be here finishing his degree, not out there getting lung cancer. At least he's not actually in Iraq, so maybe he's out of the direct line of fire. I'd better get that whiskey in the mail to him...

Now, perhaps if we had a broader international coalition, there might be enough support from other countries to help out. at this point, I guess nobody wants near that troublespot, and we've pissed enough people off that we don't have too many favors to call upon.

Hakenslash, do you think that increasing military funding would increase manpower? are there more professional soldiers in the making if we could pay them, or have most of the folks who would volunteer already done so? or do I misunderstand your point?

 

It's only the Americans, British troops are torturing Iraqis as well and Britsh troops are not "weekend warriors, they are professionals.

 

Some facts to consider people...

Only a few (i.e. small number) US and UK soldiers committed these acts. They were not under order to comitt these acts. They will be severly punished for their actions.

Not every Iraqi is opposed to US temporary occupation. The MINORITY are the ones opposing the occupation yet they are more vocal and recieve more publicity. It's difficult to be vocal about agreeing with someone especially with the fear of being attacked by those who disagree.

There is no excuse for the actions of these 'torturers' no matter how many friends they have seen killed.

To withdraw the troops would bring more chaos than there already is. Some law and order is better than no law and order.

It's a pity that the troops are now going to be labeled as torturers because a very small number (6-20) of soldiers were being sadistic.

These troops should have the book thrown at them at full force to show that this kind of abuse of power is not acceptable in western society.