Sainthood - your opinions?

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I am not sure what my opinion is on this but some friends have mentioned "what if they got it wrong?" in regards to various Saints.

St Brigid

Before Brigid was a saint she was the goddess of Fire! whose manifestations were song and poetry, which the Celts considered the flame of knowledge. Like Fatima she was later Christinized to convert the local Pagans.

Strangely there is an annual mass (February 1) for this Saint/Goddess dispite this being common knowledge. All that changed from this celebration was some of the pagan rituals were replaced with Christian rituals.

That well known Roman Protestant, St Patrick

We also know that St Patrick was barely in Ireland and died a very rich man with lots of Irish jewlrey and charms, as he made lots of Pagan friends in Ireland. He was Christian and Pagan when it suited him, and yes he did convert lots to Christianity, but this was not out of faith and duty, but for fame and fortune - he seena niche and got there before the Normans!

I could also mention St George.

Of course, I would say that someone like Mother Theresa more than deserves this. Anyway is this practice still valid in todays society?

 

Just a little observation: you don't need to have a mass for a saint because the goal is already achieved (he's in heaven). It can be of a saint (like a special rite), in memory of one, maybe in honour.

Many saints are badly documented and there's a whole lot of kings and princes sainted probably for political reasons. Back in the old times, they didn't have a whole Vatican dicastery for it but local bishops simply confirmed saints venerated by the people. Someone could die in the opinion of sanctity, the crowd would start shouting things (a bit like the famous "Santo subito!" after John Paul II's death) and the bishop would confirm him. I wonder if some of the traditional saints have ever been confirmed by any authority.

The idea behind saints is that sainthood declared by the Church isn't a post mortem reward. It isn't done for the person. If he really is a saint, he's in heaven already, so he doesn't care. It's more for the living faithful, to give them a good example and, also, to ashame them a little bit when they fall short. As in, if they could do it, we also can.

However, all people in heaven are saints, declared by the Church or not. After all, the Church can't put a dead person in heaven. There are legions of good people who love their neighbour and whose good example affects directly no more than a couple of immediate friends or relatives. They are never going to get certified miracles, big feasts or anything. And still, their lives are surely not meaningless. The people affected will affect other people and sooner or later you're going to get a regular famous saint down the line. That's probably how the official saints come to being. They are role models in their own right but many had role models that no one heard of -- the unnamed, unofficial saints.

After all, miracles and big things are for the people, not for the person. Well, sometimes one of the purposes of a miracle is to strengthen the faith of the one performing it (like in the mediaeval miracle in Italy that happened during transubstantiation in the mass which was being said by a doubting priest), perhaps for the person on the receiving end (especially the healing miracles), but generally, it's supposed to be a manifestation of something greater than just the health of one person or the physical phenomenon being effected. There are even official saints who didn't do a single miracle during their lives and only after they died someone was cured of illness or helped out of a hopeless situation after praying for that saint's intercession and again, the person doesn't have to be declared a saint by the Church for the intercession to work, nor does praying to any saint or even God directly guarantee the intended result. After all, it's not a Greater Wish spell. It's prayer. Often the results are somehow visible but different from asked for -- and often better. Funny thing when it turns out it's good that your prayers weren't granted... guess it teaches some wisdom. Anyway, I seem to be digressing.

 

I knew you would be the first to reply

That has cleared up a lot of questions and confusion for me

 

I think another point of clarification is how one acheives sainthood. Chev is probably more of an authority on this than me, but I think you're supposed to have 3 confirmed miracles in your life time to qualify for sainthood. Naturally, as Chev points out, there are numerous saints who got there through political maneuvering, but to my knowledge there is no way to "unsaintify" someone. These are the rules as we have them now - 3 miracles. Like I said, Chev would be the person to ask as to what constitutes a miracle.

 

It's possible to take someone out of the list on the grounds that he likely didn't exist at all, for all I know. Miracles during your life may be important in the trial but what matters is those after death, as a result of intercessory prayers. Probably the most popular kind is healing but there are other ones.

For example, they've been reporting lots of healing miracles by John Paul II when he was alive (they had been kept secret) but they still need something after death. As you can repent at any point up to death bed, you can also change for the worse, so miracles during life aren't totally reliable.

 

Exactly. It's done because it gives a way to the clergy to put his hand in the wallet of the believers.

Me searching for cover while Chev pulls out his gun

 

I consider all miracles of saints to be lies or exaggerated legends since I don't believe in miracles. Hence I don't believe in any special sainthood and neither does the Lutheranian Church. According to them everyone who is a christian is a saint and there is no additional special status. The whole canonization process just sounds wrong to me. So no to me it's not valid today nor has it ever been.

 

@Morgoroth...

Then do you disbelieve the miracles attributed to Jesus?

How about miracles attributed to Saint Peter?

Or miracles of the "second generation" of Apostles, like Saint Paul?

I wonder how you reconcile Christianity without believing in miracles. As chev has already said...everyone in heaven is a Saint...it's just that some have been named (cannonized) by the Church to serve as an example or inspiration. Cannonization doesn't 'make' one a Saint...it merely officially proclaims it.

Also, as chev has already intimated, there was a highly regional nature to the naming of Saints and certain districts or diocese might celebrate the Feast of a certain Saint at the same time that a different Saint was celebrated elsewhere. It was until relatively recent times that the Church has sought to have a more unified and consistent process for cannonization. Many of these fringe Saints, which St. Brigid is one I think (not to be confused with St. Brigette), have never been formally cannonized by the Roman Church.

Also, to further complicate the issue, as far as Catholics go you can have 'Roman' rite Saints and 'Eastern' rite Saints...not to mention Saints from the Orthodox Church which can vary from Greek, Russian etc., and the quasi-Protestent Anglican Saints...I think Thomas A. Beckett is one of these.

@Cesard
Saint Patrick serves as an example that you can be wealthy at the end of your life and still get into heaven .

 

Since I'm living in a period of doubt, in which I choose not to blindly believe everything the bible says then yes I disbelieve the miracles of Jesus.

These I disbelieve even more.

These I definently disbelieve.

I don't. I'm not very religious and I doubt some of the teachings of Christianity but I won't go as far as to renounce it. I'm still a member in the Church and for now I have chosen to remain as a member even if I doubt and disbelieve many of the things they preach and say.

 

[Meaningless post designed as either a poor joke or deliberate flame removed] /dmc

[ June 21, 2005, 00:13: Message edited by: dmc ]

 

[Comment to meaningless post removed as well] /dmc

[ June 21, 2005, 00:15: Message edited by: dmc ]

 

If the Higher ups in the Church believe he did all that, then they will saint him. It's not about what happened, but the story that got back to whomever does the cannonization.

The Miracles of today are smaller, and easy to miss if you don't know what to look for. Today they include an individual being healed, or a mighty Change of heart for a sinner to forsake his sins and change their lives. The Miracles in my life wouldn't be seen in Finland, and are unlikely to affect anyone that doesn't believe, but it confirms to me that what I believe is true.

That's where I was until I tested out the teachings. I believed in The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, I didn't doubt the restoration of the church, I just doubted I could have a place in the church. I fell into self destructive paths. A few years ago, I put the promises in scripture to the test, having faith in God, I gave up my sins and sought forgiveness. The feelings are truly amazing. You can't know the feelings I have from where you are, but it doesn't make them less real. You can feel the same thing if you do accept faith and try to live it. I can't prove it to you before hand, but you can experience it for yourself. Try to do as God asks and see what happens...

 

Man, if you believe the Bible in the first place, you shouldn't have any trouble with one more bit of senselessness.

 

Maybe its too early in the morning, but I fail to see how this is proof, considering that St Patrick was a fake and fraud.

Also in the New Testament it states "its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

Stop flaming. Please.

 

(Not sure if this is true, heard it from my sister. Maybe Chev can clarify ) Cesgard - apparently that quote doesn't translate too well to our modern knowledge, with the 'eye of a needle' being a place that camels found it hard to get through or something. So it's not as impossible as everyone seems to think

 

I guess its like the Red Sea vs The Great(Red?) Marsh from Exodus. Lets hear what Chev has to say

 

The (why eye ?) "ear of a needle" was a name for a one, smallest gate to Jerusalem.

 

Camels had to crouch but they could make it. By the way, Jesus's very own friend whom He raised up from the dead was Lazarus, quite a rich guy. Joseph of Arimatee wasn't exactly poor, either. Personally, I think they could probably canonise some of those 19th century Christian employers who paid their workers decent wages and even a share of profit and enough time off, offered bank-like opportunities to save up, helped in educating children etc, even if they actually made millions on it. Then again, it's quite hard to put it at good use instead of spending on consumption or hoarding on accounts, so it was probably close to as hard for them as for a camel to squeeze through that gate. I'd rather bet my last money on such a businessman than on a minimum wage earner who spends all his money on alcohol, for example. It's not about how much you have but how you use it.

[ June 21, 2005, 13:21: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I always thought that recognizing someone as a saint was a truly brilliant (or inspired) idea. People like to see role models, today we have Luke Skywalker, Rambo, rock singers and comic book heroes (at least according to polls of incoming freshmen in college). Pretty poor role models in my opinion (with a few exceptions). Fifty years ago DiMaggio, Eisenhower, Nimitz, and Murphy topped the list.

People like to see greatness and like to have a role model. You see a star and follow it. The church gave some truly great stars to follow and inspire.

I'm not particularly religious, so I see the technical aspects of becoming a Saint far less important than the lessons learned from the Saints.