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To place human homosexuality in the broader framework of evolutionary science, it would be sensible to assume that any mutation within a species that encourages it to act in a way that would halt it's ability to procreate, must be seen as a disability that would eventually lead to extinction.
Of course the difference between humans and other animals is that we have evolved a concience in order to combat our primitive urges.
In my cold hard mind I see homosexuality as a genetic disorder. However this does not make me a homophobe (correct spelling?). I give a homosexual exactly the same level of respect I would show to any other human being.
I have had asthma from birth. A disorder of the windpipe which in times past would have seriously lowered my chance of survival past puberty. I am therefore an imperefect human being. Exactly the same (imho) as a homosexual.


This view is of course just one theory, a theory that i happen to agree with. Therefore i see homosexuality as a variation in the make up of an individual. I beleive that most homosexuals will have been born that way, instilled with some biological ticking time bomb ready to blow at the first steps of puberty. I don't believe that a gay couple could pass on their homosexuality to an adopted child. I also don't believe that there is any foundation for the belief that a gay couple would be inappropriate as parents. The problem is with their sexual attraction, not with their paternal/maternal instinct.

The only problem I could find is that when a child is brought up by a gay couple they would encounter predjudice themselves. Imagine a five year old girl trying to explain to her friends that she has two fathers.

I think this reason enough for my personal view that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt. Not because of their inability, but because of a great majority of people who would subconciously and conciously treat the child with prejudice, simply because of the sexual orientation of their parents.

Ps: Any suggestion that links Gay couples with paedophilia is ridiculous.

 

The religious and special interest groups sponsoring the studies you are talking about are just as biased (except in the other direction) as the pro-gay groups you are talking about, so their facts don't work for me, either. This leaves us at an impass, with no information available from an unbiased source.

Regarding the pedophilia thing......I didn't mean to make it look like this was an assertion that you and others were making. Apologies if my post caused that appearance. It is, however, a frequently brought up issue by the "talking heads" that are always brought in to discuss the issue, so I felt the need to adress it.

 

If the number of states banning gay marriage is any indicator, fear of being labelled a homophobe isn't a big concern around here.

 

The only negative thing that these kids might have to deal with is that they may be made fun of in middle school for having two dads. Frankly, everyone gets made fun of for something in middle school, so I fail to see how that is a big deal.


-Maybe so, but we're not talking about teasing, we're talking having the bejesus beaten out of you. Everyday. This kid will be in hospital within a term. Just try it in a British state school.

 

I've never heard of a child being killed for having gay parents. I have, however, heard of children being killed for being gay. This isn't to say that such a thing will never happen. Just that it isn't all that likely. People would only know you were being raised by a gay couple if you told them.

 

I;m not talking about being killed, but being beaten up. And the other kids WILL find out. Schools are hotbeds of rumour. No-one can keep a secret like that for long.

 

Meh. I hardly think of that as legitimate grounds to stop the practice. I used to get beaten up for getting good grades.

 

I'm not saying it is, I'm just offering another way of looking at it.

But when you were getting beaten for having good grades (and for the record, so did I once or twice) you had an incentive to get good grades, and you were going to profit in the long run.

 

Its not really the bullying at school that would be the only effect of growing up with two fathers or mothers.

The physcological effects of a child that grows up in a same sex parent situation are mind boggling. Freud would have a field day.
The very process of first realising that you are adopted or concieved through artificial means is dramatic enough but to realise that most kids your age have a mother and a father is likely to send most over the edge.
The problem is that while most mature people have established their opinions and predjudices a child hasn't. The moment a child realises how abnormal his/her situation is they are likely to develop a complex
(there is no scientific grounding for this, I'm just thinking expressively)

Plus the prejudice against the child will run deeper than just the kids at school. Parents of other children in the school are likely to stop their child from associating with a child parented by a gay couple. The teachers are just as likely to prejudice. There are very few lines of work in which you are required to be pro-gay and therefore there will always be predjudice in proffesional spheres.

And of course any significant effect on a person in childhood could act like a butterfly effect. A lack of childhood friends or severe bullying can lead to severe mental health problems and even suicide (unfortuantly, in this area i know this to be the case.)

The problem is not the homosexual couples, it's the whole world of prejudice surrounding them.

 

It wasn't for me, but then again it was something I always knew. I made no bones about it, and when other children tried to use it to bully me at school, they failed miserably. Maybe I just don't bully easily.

 

Sleep, isn't giving up something you hold to be true and important in favour of prejudice a wee bit cowardly? Look at it this way: some kids are born bullies and others are born vicitms. the first will terrorize the latter no matter what, be it because of the size of their feet, their skin colour, their religion, their upbringing, their homosexual parents, or their skill with the jew's-harp.

Think of sending kids with homosexual parents to British state school as giving those kids a fantastic opportunity to develop some spine, eh.

Now, what I like best in this discussion is what it tells us about human beings. As regards content, this debate sucks - I have to echo Harbourboy here. We all know who is who in the pro or anti gay SP community, so what?

But the form of the debate itself? Marvellous! The plainer the evidence, the more diverse the reactions you get from human beings. Take the well known fact that astrology is mumpitz. And yet you will get the whole range from belief to disbelief with various shades of dunno-but-let-em-have-it-their/my-way. "Yeah, it most likely is true, but imagine if it wasn't..."

Conversely, the less evidence humans have, the firmer they are in their arbitrary viewpoints. "You can't back it up?! Haha, this clearly supports my cause!" - "I can't back it up? So what, this clearly supports my cause as well!"

Can someone tell me why this is the case? Is it because we don't defend positions but we defend ourselves? Because we confuse our beliefs with our identity? Because we place our self-esteem upon how others regard us?

Bah, we're a bunch of smart-asses, aren't we.

 

Actually, I believe the original topic was Gay 'Civil unions', a subject w were discussing today in my philosophy class.

At the end of the day, it isn't marriage in the eyes of the church or the law, and that is all, right?

 

Good point Darkthrone.

Of course I realise that serious physcological problems affecting a child from a same sex parentage is just a worst case scenario. In reality I would exect for 99% of the children to turn out fine. The problem remains however, that there is that 1% who may be seriosuly affected by the prejudice that they may recieve. I think it a little unfair to label a child who sumbits to peer pressure as cowardly. Nor should the effect of bullying be underestimated. Some children cope with the knowledge of their adoption, many would cope well with the knowledge that their parents were very different from everyone else. But there will be a few who are affected.

So let me put this in the form of a question: Assuming what I say is true, (and I honestly believe it is)
Is the happiness of this 1 child to be sacrificed for the happiness of 99 gay couples and their children? Is this a fair price to pay?
Is it fair to expose a child to predjudice that it has a chance of avoiding?


On the subject of the rest Darkthrone's post. I would say that one of the most important problems I face as a researcher is the question of public opinion. People who base their arguments on unsound or non-existent reasoning or evidence are often far too influenced by their own ingrained opinions and beliefs. The problem is we cannot just ignore people's bad opinions, we must combat them. Taking the example of same sex adoption, it is well informed people who may make the desicion of allowing this, but it is the ignorant public who have to live with this desicion. It is these people who cause problems and act on prejudices.

 

Not to get picky, but 99% of normal people aren't. Mental illness of some type is more prevalent than one out of every 100 people.