More religious madness

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@ Faraaz. I'm a muslim as well and like you I think the pope is talking a load of crap. So why should I care! I wouldn't insult Jesus simply because as a Muslim I believe he once lived (hope you people aren't suprised). If the pope vents his anger publicly because he thinks mohammed is evil, then unfortunately I don't care and neither do most other muslims so he can keep his retarded opinion to his select group of followers. I think the pope is the one whose being evil here. Breaking one of the ten commandments of the christian religion by telling lies. He knows what he's doing, after all he is a leading pope. I wonder how much he earns ?

@Pacman: I'm not going to kill anyone. Where did you get that statement from ?

 

Hi Dendri,

This is certainly not how he is perceived in Britain. Although in the eighteen months since he was elected Pope, Benedict would seem to have softened his abrasive image he is still regarded as a somewhat ruthless conservative. Whilst still a Cardinal, Ratzinger (in)famously once referred to Buddhism as a form of masturbation for the mind! Even his apology at the weekend managed to bring Jews into the row. This is, however, a mater of opinion and we certainly can't expect Benedict to completely accept Islam or else he would no longer be Pope!

I think offence was taken because although the Pope did make it clear he was offering a quotation there was no phrase clearly distancing himself from the claim that Muhammad was responsible for evil. Further offence lay buried beneath theological rhetoric when the Pope argued that because God in Islam "is absolutely transcendent" [a notion some Christian theologians also share], He is "not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality". Which, surely, is another way of the Pope saying that Islam may be beyond reason. He then makes a further reference to the views of the Byzantine emperor: "Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God” For in claiming that there is no reasoning in or with Islam, and then further claiming that to act without reason is to act contrary to the will of God, is pretty close to the assertion that this religion is godless. This is why the Pope's remarks may look rather more than just a slip or a casual mistake.

Most certainly true, and I never said otherwise. However, as I have previously stated, the Catholic church is ill-placed to condemn violent jihad when many Catholics are themselves guilty of violence and it would be more constructive if the Pope wielded his considerable influence to reign in those fanatics who use Christianity to justify violence. There were certainly infinitely more constructive ways to make his point about violence than to quote the rant of a 14th century emperor who is hardly an impartial observer of Islam.

 

Oh, just about every muslim gathering i've seen on the news lately, like the one rally in Britain after the cartoon incident. They wrote it down on banners and stuff, displaying their peaceful interpretation of Islam. Gave me a good chuckle, i can tell you that much.

 

The thing is there are no Christian terrorists who go on murderous rampages slaughtering civilians in the name of God, yet there ARE Muslim terrorists who do this in THIS day and age. Deliberate targetting of civilians is not something modern Christians do, so to say the Pope is throwing stones from his glass house (or cathedral... whatever) is not a correct assumption to make.

Dare I ask somebody to provide evidence of a Chrstian fanatic attacking civilians of another faith because the unfaithful must be purged or some such in the past 25 years?

 

Oh wow! How come SP hasn't been blown up yet? Oh, that's right, being a muslim doesn't automatically make you a terrorist. Seriously, it's great to have some diversity of views and opinions on these Boards, especially to help provide some balance to this particular discussion, which sometimes gets a bit too hypothetical and second-hand.

 

What I'd really like is a clear definition of Infidel as mentioned in the call to Jihad. If it generically means Chirstians and Jews or Americans in particular, then the Pope was spot on. If Infidel simply means one who seeks to kill you for your beliefs or violently disrupt your worship, then the Pope was out of line.

Any religion that demands the shedding of innocent blood is, in my mind, evil and inhuman...

 

SatansBF - The theological leanings of Benedikt are not my concern. I know nothing of a group that goes by the name of Lord's Resistance Army. Possibly because the scale of violent fanaticism in Christianity does not compare to that in Islam? Nor the number of Christians who act on their extreme beliefs? I do not know.

Where to start? You actually made me search for that lecture and read it with some care for detail. No easy thing, given that it deals with theological questions of a rather high order. Being a native German speaker I got the drift of it firsthand. Where you suspect underlying insults, hidden slights and inferences the pope surely meant to make... I must say thee nay. It is nothing but an introduction to his musings about reason/logos and how it cannot be complete by only relying on empirical data and facts that can be verified. How that conviction is hampering Europe's prospect of entering an eye-to-eye dialogue with cultures who think such limited reason/logos offensive to their innermost beliefs and understandig of how this world presents itself to us.
Now, if you, SBF, or any of those hopeless lunatics in the streets feel the pope did not sufficiently distance himself from the 'Islam is godless and Mohammed is a herald of evil' vileness then that's only proof you did not understand. Europe is the one that was slapped around, because she lost sight of that wholesome logos, in Benedikt's understanding. Logos as the Byzantine emperor expressed it in that dispute with a Persian scholar. The contrast is not logos vs. Islam but logos vs. modern Europe. The sole reason why this citation was chosen, I assume with some certainty, as the pope disapproved of the Mohammed caricatures. If he was that nefarious I am sure he would at least be consistent, wouldnt you agree?

Then again there is no avoiding people who want a conflict. No matter how trivial they will use all to bring it on.

 

Heh - apparently there was some graffiti today along the sound-barrier walls on the highway; 'The Pope was right.'

And with all due respect to the Muslims here and elsewhere as individuals (separated from their belief system) - yes, I think the Pope was right when he brands Islam as a Bad Thing.

On the other hand, I think the same about basically all of Christianity. Islam is just doing a better job of expressing its absurdity in the modern world.

 

Dendri,

Like yourself I cannot answer that question except to say that ridiculous, outmoded and hateful religious practices are unfortunately prevalent in both faiths. As regards the Lord's Resistance Army they are a rebel group which has been fighting the Ugandan Government for nearly 18 years, and has killed or maimed tens of thousands of civilians in their attempts to “purify” the populace.

As you have pointed out the Pope's address was primarily a scholarly exercise that sought to challenge the idea that rationality is intrinsically and necessarily secular. Where I found a sharp criticism of Islam was when Benedict followed his assertion that in Muslim teaching,"God is absolutely transcendent", and therefore "not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality [i.e logos] "with this further quote from the Byzantine Emperor: "Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God”. Such a statement appears to me as pretty close to an assertion that Islam is godless. However, since I am only able to read the statement in translation I would appreciate your opinion of the relevant passages.

Abomination,

To name but a few: the massacres in the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut , the attacks by Christian Rebels on Hindu villagers in North Eastern India, the communal violence in Nigeria , millennialist militias in Africa, and the sectarian strife in Northern Ireland. Such actions are obviously a complete distortion of Christianity and it also true that some Muslims are equally guilty in this respect, but it is naïve for you to believe that Islam has a monopoly on such barbarity.

 

Allah transcending our categories is not the position of the pope, obviously, but that of Islam. The words of a Muslim scholar, Ibn Hazn, were cited in Benedikt's lecture as an example. More accurately, Benedikt used the work of a Professor Khoury who made these observations. To what degreee that is an assertion you will have to discuss with our Muslim friends here or elsewhere...
The pope points out, though, that similar beliefs were held among Christians throughout the centuries, including good old Immanuel Kant.

Benedikt's phrasing of

was translated - somewhat lacking - as

In any event, the pope did not deny the existence of a god in Islam. Far more he spoke of a parting (Scheideweg) in the understanding of this god. I think that is a far cry from claiming Islam is godless, as all that was revealed is that Christianity and Islam arent exactly identical in their attempts to imagine the divine.

How banal is that?

Pardon me, but the assertions you accuse the pope of I fail to recognize.

 

I've heard that Allah translates to "the God". This suggests that it is the same God, but they follow the teachings of a different teacher. They reduce Jesus Christ to simply being a prophet instead of the divine son of God, and promote Mohammed as a great leader of the faith.

Naturally, we Christians haven't been told much about this Mohammed, so we discount him. Further, some of his teachings are all but contradicted the teachings that we've been taught, so we reject it.

Whether Islam is "evil and inhuman" depends on who paints the picture. Most of what I hear is peaceful, so that doesn't sound too bad (not for me, but not intolerable). If you listen to Osama Bin Laden, then that makes it the Greatest evil the world has ever known...

 

Now there is this cartoon.
I'm affraid that this won't end up very well, and what scares me most is the fact that people who don't have any opinion on the matter would die.

 

first off historically, islam did spread as a religion semi forced on people in conquered contries. when the prophet muhammed and his followeres set out and conquered the east, they allowed other religions to stay along side Islam, but they impossed extra taxes and took away certain rights from none muslims, later on they much like the christians took the policy of "convert or die". So none of our major religions are free of having been spred with violence.
But unlike any of the other major religions, Islam has not have a periode of it being the lesser religion in its core contriese.

Secondly: the whole "only muslims fundamentalist exist" is bull****, just look at ireland. it has suffered from generations christian fractions fighting each other.

and Allah translate into "the lord". the prophet muhammed was greatly inspirred by jews, the muslims believe themself to be decendents of the house of David (as far as i remember) and the first chapters of the quoran is just like the genesis.

 

Bringing up Ireland is a lame excuse, the IRA focusses on England and England alone. The Islamic hardliners have a much wider perspective, global domination. I have yet to meet the Irishman who wishes to rule the world, so don't come up with that crap.

 

You know, I can't help but feel that most of the interpretations of the Qur'an with regards to Jihad are not completely appropriate in today's modern environment.

Guys, you HAVE to keep in mind that the Quran was written during a time where civilization as we know it was non-existent in Arabia. At that time, pagan religions held sway and Mohammed was persecuted by the paganists much the same as Christ was by the Jews. The only difference, IMO, is that Christ went about spreading Christianity more passively, whereas Mohammed was active, and defended himself AND his community by waging war against some VERY aggressive tribal antagonists.

Now, having said that, I find interpretations of the scriptures of Jihad saying "Kill All Americans" made by extremist Muslims like Taliban, as well as Pacman saying we're all turban wearing maniacs with an AK-47 in one hand and a Molotov cocktail in another..BOTH to be extremely offensive.

I know, Pacman and similar anti-Islamic people are going to find some way of twisting what I have said into saying that:

1) "So you say the Quran is irrelevant today?"
2) "So you are saying that violence IS promoted by Islam?"
3) "So you say that killing innocent people in the name of Jihad is GOOD?"

And so on and so forth...please, just take what I have said in the spirit I have said it. And try not to make us Muslims look to be quite as bad as that. After all, Islam IS the fastest growing religion in the world...and we're hardly doing it by conquest of countries at the moment.

Edit: On a slightly related note, this is about the whole Christ in Islam issue. As I was taught by my parents, and my personal interpretations of the Quran, here's a short summary:

* Throughout the Quran, Jews, Christians and Muslims are collectively referred to as "People of the Book" or something similar. I have always understood this as meaning that these three religions all worship the same God.

* In the Quran, I have understood what I have read to mean that there were four Books of note.

-The Zubur (sp??) was revealed to David, who we believe was the first (chronologically speaking) prophet.
-The Torat (Jewish holy book) was revealed to Moses, who we believe was the second prophet.
-The Injil (Christian holy book) was written by the disciples of Christ based on his teachings, who we believe was the third prophet.
-The Quran (Islamic holy book) was written as dictated by the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammed, who we believe was the fourth and FINAL prophet.

* This implies that Jewism, Christianity and Islam are like Windows 95, Me and XP, atleast in my interpretation. Sort of like updated versions of the SAME DAMN THING! It really pisses me off when Christians and Jews argue about Islam, I mean COME ON! You guys are technically speaking, the closest thing to Muslims without actually BEING Muslim. Its one thing when Hindus start riots and genocide in India against Muslims (Partition of India etc.) but its completely another when YOU guys start doing it!

As a disclaimer, I would like to add that these views are my own, and that no offense is intended to any religion I have mentioned in my post. Also, Pacman, I find MOST of your posts extremely offensive, and a little moderation on your part would go a long way.

Cheers everyone!

Edit2:
@Aikanaro:

Wow...that's a pretty bold statement. I'd actually agree with you though, if you confined your statement to the morons who start saying "Kill the pope" and other extreme Muslims, instead of people like me who just want to get on with things without being the subject of all this negative sentiment.

Edit3...this is getting out of hand!:

@SatansBedFellow: Great post! I really found your point of view on the whole issue very objective and non-biased, not to mention informative. Nice one.

[ September 24, 2006, 17:13: Message edited by: Faraaz ]

 

Generalisations: They're Fun And Easy!

 

@Clixby: I believe my response can be accurately summarised as..." "

 

Faraaz, I wasn't talking about you. I agree with you.

 

Well...I was kidding you know...

Sticking the tongue out at the other person and all that...

Edit: Sorry I guess...although I'm not too sure what I'm apologising for!

[ September 24, 2006, 18:37: Message edited by: Faraaz ]

 

I think I gave them a bit of practice, Sorry...

But I thought that making religion look bad/foolish was what most people do here?

This is the biggest difference between Christianity and Islam. You teach that Christ was a prophet, we teach that he was the Son of God.

So they piss you off like some Christian extremists piss the rest of us Christians off.

And it saves people from having to actually think while claiming that they are superior to everyone else.