Ideas Welcome - Serious Situation

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Ok, I have never done one of these...can you give me advice things....eventhough I have answered a few. But, here goes. I have a very serious situation, and I am looking to find some other peoples perspective on the subject.

Ok, lets say that two people meet when they are fairly young, basically early twenties. The first year of the relationship is great, eventhough it is difficult. After a year they get engaged, and move back to live with "his" family until they can get on their feet. They are engaged for 3 years before they finally tie the knott. However, during that time some very serious things take place.

The mans family seriously meddles and tries to break up the couple, and the woman is dealing with a depression called S.A.D., but doesn't know it. The couple has a very rocky and difficult time, but still marry because they love one another despite all of the bad that is going on. However, after 6 years together of which 4 have been unhappy, the woman reaches a breaking point and leaves the man because not only do neither one of them know what she is going thru, but also because the man has done so much changing under the pressure of his family that she can hardly recoginize him anymore.

The man wakes up after 3 months of being seperated and realizes that he lost the most important person in his life and must have her back. He undergoes a huge change in himself, because he realizes he doesn't like himself much any more either, and then goes after the woman to convince her that he has changed and that no matter what he still wants her in his life. After 5 months or so and a lot of struggle and effort the man finally convinces the woman to come back and give it a try.

The woman found out right before she left him that she was dealing with a serious case of depression caused by not getting enough sunlight, and had started seeing a phsychologist, but had not managed to deal with it quite well so far. Unfortunately, the woman is afraid to tell the man, because she is unsure of how he might react to her, and because she was not quite able to see the truth of her situation and how bad it truly was.

Therefore, as I am sure you can figure, the man and woman are unsuccessful at making it work the second time as well. The woman during the time where she is trying to make it work out with the man, finds out that she has somes serious issues with her parents, whom live across the country from where she does. Increasing the volume of her troubles once again. The woman doesn't want to leave the man, but figures that she has no choice, as she is too depressed to be able to look for ways around her problems. And she is totally terrified of going through another winter with her depression, as she is worried she will not survive it.

The woman moves to a place where there is a lot of sunshine....basically the place she grew up...and slowly over a month or so begins to come out of her depression. While doing this she realizes that she loves the man, always has, and doesn't want to loose him. (At this point the paperwork for the divorce has been given to the attorney, but no steps have been taken to actually file for it.) The woman (still not having dealt with the issue of her depression) rushes to tell the man. The man gets upset..after having been left twice....and says he doesn't know if he can accept the woman back and that he thinks his feelings towards her have even changed. The woman is so upset by the news it sends her sliding back down into her depression, but she has been given enough time without feeling so bad that she decides to fight it for real this time.

She stands up and regonizes it for what it is, and that it has more than controlled her life for the last five years. She finally begins to admitt to people that she has a serious problem, that it can be fixed, and she wants to fix it. She make plans to go see a dr to get put on medication for it, because she recognizes that she cannot do it alone, espeacially considering that fact that she has realized she may be loosing the love of her life because of it.

The man doesn't know if being with her is the best thing for either of them. His stance is that they tried for 7 years and it didn't work, so it may never work. And that they have both hurt each other enough. The woman feels that they have grown and become better people, and that once she is on her feet and has kicked the depression, they may actually now be ready to really love each other and make a good marriage. Whereas neither of them could have before given all of their problems.

This will require the man moving across country for awhile to be with the woman. The man is afraid to do that for several reason. Leaving family, a good job, and the fact that he is afraid even after all that it may stil not work. The man, whom will not at this point go forward with the divorce, nor will he say what he is feeling, is surprised that the woman never told him what she was dealing with and how it affected their live. He is glad that she is going to get help. However, he is leaving her dangling on a string, wondering if she will have a chance to save their marriage and keep the love of her life, once she is better. She is beside herself with worry and doesn't know what to do.

She needs to get better before she can be of use to herself or anyone else, but is afraid that she will loose him in the process. That the longer she remains away from him, the easier it will be for him to decide that it is better for them to move on from each other. He is not telling her anything as to how he feels or what he thinks except two things. One he thinks she can get through it and stand on her own two feet again, and that he believes she needs to do it for herself not him. And two, that the only thing he can say right now is he is committed to being friends no matter what happends. Other than that he refused to talk about how he feels.

Is it possible that this troubled couple who still love each other very much can survive depression and family meddling and keep their marriage together? Or do you think they are doomed?

Any advice you would give them?

 

I don't think they're doomed... but seven years is one third of all my life and marriage is well ahead of me yet... so I don't know if I'm any good here. Here goes some logical analysis, off my deduction and mostly second-hand experience.

From what you write, it seems possible that the man's feelings have changed. There's always a reason when friendship talk starts. But he still isn't leaving her, so there's a reason there as well.

It's true that she needs to deal with it for herself, not for him. It's also true that she demands much of him - with no warranties of anything and with two bad experiences. Logically, he can't really expect much else than being left again. This time, he has more to lose than before. He realises this.

What he doesn't realise is that her depression was at least partly her fault, so he worked on his bad experiences with her and contributed a great deal, if not the major part. If he didn't realise the influence of his family on him, he isn't really supposed to realise this one. But he doesn't seem an insensitive man, so maybe he would give it a thought if told... But telling him that could be taken as a grief, regret, maybe an attack. Still, I think honesty is always the best policy.

However, she didn't show much trust when she didn't tell him about her depression. He probably feels not trusted. He might even be feeling judged unworthy.

He feels hurt, obviously, but it strikes me as quite possible that he also feels wronged, and more wronged by the woman than the woman is by him. Perhaps he's drawing a conclusion at this point. There's a reason why he won't talk about his feelings, but we know too little to take sensible guesses at those reasons. Might be that he doesn't want to influence her decision. Maybe he's suspending a conclusion. Perhaps he's not sure of anything anymore. Perhaps waiting for more data to ponder.

They can survive, in my opinion. But I think this needs absolute honesty, trust beyond what's reasonable, genuine compassion and genuine spirit of sacrifice for the other, with the ability to overcome individual egoism. This basically means love. This doesn't have to mean erotic man and woman love, but it does mean love.

Love can't be forced, though. Especially the erotic man and woman love. If he has lost it, he won't probably get it back. It would have to be dormant in him, but not lost. Love tends to be lost forever unless circumstances change like totally. It's possible for two caring and loving (in their own way) friends to form a marriage that works. Well, but if there's any love at all and they did love each other this way too, I believe they will love each other this way again at some point. Or, to be precise, will realise they do.

Both must believe it's worth it, though. And must decide to put that beyond reasonable trust in each other and must step over any egoism, any kind of "what's in for me" thinking.

 

True love has no boundries. Does one judge the beauty of the ocean by the individual droplets. Is a rose not still beautiful even if one petal is not perfect. Love is like this. It accepts our faults but still finds us attractive. This love can be compared to the seasons. It started as Spring...then moved onto the heat of Summer...then it saw change like the leaves of Autumn....then came the dreaded Winter and coldness. Now that winter has begun to yield to spring once again. This couple can still find love. Problems can be overcome when love springs eternal! Always remember love needs faith just as much as faith needs love.

 

My advice would be for the woman to try to get a handle on her own problems before she tries to go on with her life. Being in a relationship in the state she is in now would put a huge pressure on the man and would hamper what hope they have. Also she owes it to the man for dumping him twice and the fact that her illness is to blame for a lot of their problems that she is well before she gives it another chance. If he is not available when she has reached that state, well, the clichés of clichés, there are other fish in the sea. It can also be that the view of him being the love of her life can only be an expression of the neediness of the disease which is depression.

To the man I would say that he doesnt owe her anything and moving across the country to be with a woman who has dumped him twice and suffers from mental problems is not a wise thing to do. Hopefully she can get over her problems and if that is the case they might get together again but I would recommend moving very very slowly. Also the dude really ought to tell his family to **** off and let him live his own life. What kind of grown man lets his family dictate anything in his life?

That is the cynical and pragmatical advice of joacqin.

 

Old love lies deep. Probably very deep in this case.

There is always still some love lingering for people you had something with. It's one of the reasons many people get together again after breaking up, even if many years and new loves have passed.

I wonder whether the woman has made it absolutely clear to the man that she will try her utmost to get over her depression and make it work. There should be no confusion about this.

Also, remember that action speaks louder than words. Perhaps a special gesture could convince him.

Basically you need him to let his heart win from his mind. He still loves the woman, but rationally he feels like he will end up being hurt again. Self-protection I guess.

This love does have a chance, but it will be difficult.

 

Joac is right but it's a two-way street. Both parties need to be secure and comfortable with themselves before trying to make this - or any other - romantic relationship work. You (generically) need to know who you are before you can offer yourself to someone else, and you (again generically) deserve an equally solid partner.

My best wishes go out to these folks, both as individuals and as a couple.

 

Men can be strange creatures, as far as their loves are concerned. This is especially true of cases, where they have had very strong feelings for a particular person, even if they have been mistreated in the past. I don't know whether that can be made a stereotypical description, but it is most definitely possible.

However, in this particular case that you have outlined, I would say that the man definitely has no responsibilities to oblige the woman in this case, having been mistreated. But, as I said, you never know. If he loves her enough to forgive her for what she has done, then they have a chance, but the woman would definitely owe it to the man, to sort all her problems out before he even considers taking her back.

The bit where he says that he is still her friend, and that she needs to sort her problems out for herself is absolutely correct too, IMHO. This man has a well settled life of his, albeit, without this woman he seems to have loved (loves??) so much, and its just too much to ask on the part of the woman if she thinks he is going to move across the country to be with her.

Advice for the woman would be to sort out her personal problems, come back to the man, and spend a while convincing him that she has changed drastically as well, and that she has taken care of all the problems and she had, and is now ready to start over again.

To the guy here, I would say that 7 years is a lot of time, and he shouldn't dismiss the possibility of reconciliation with this woman, especially if she loves him enough to sort all her problems out and take the time and effort to convince him again.

But, considering human nature, and other factors we don't really know much about, I am personally skeptical of their chances at making it work. But hey, if they love each other enough, thats all they really need. Just work it out!

 

Well, I can tell by the answers that many of you view the man to have been seriously wronged. However, this is not completely true. You see what made the woman leave in the first time was the fact that she had been wronged.

She had been attacked by his family. One member of the family saying that she wasn't even a person worthy of being loved, that she was scum on the bottom of the families feet, and that all she would ever do was hold him back. The same member even went out of her way to convince others that the woman was not good. They accused her of being to clingy, because she enjoyed holding her husbands hand and sitting on his lap at family parites. Many family members viewed that to be "wrong." The man would tell her how to behave in public and would admonish her if she didn't do or say the right things. If she didn't smile enough, or say the perfect thing, he would get upset. Would insist that she deal with the family members that she knew didn't like her anyway. He left her alone a lot, never stuck up for her, and began to push her away whenever they were around his family.

He made her feel like she could do nothing right. Things like folding the laundry, cooking dinner, dusting, or doing the dishes....no matter how much she did or how hard she tried, it was never enough for him. She worked part time and held 17 credit hours, finished college in 3 years with a 2.945, and the whole time he berated her for never doing enough.

Also, what you must realize is that the woman went to the man's home where he grew up, eventhough it placed her in a difficult postion. She was made live in a place she didn't know, with people she didn't know, and do most of the things on her own. As well as be away from her own family, whom has been very ill for the last 3 years. Getting a job, and getting into school, and even finding her own way around where all things she did on her own. Therefore you see, she followed him across the country to be with him, and ended up living in a place that was not good for her physically or emotionally. And she did it all on love, while his family was abusing her behind his back.

He didn't find out how they were treating her until a year after it had begun. And not because she didn't try to tell him, but because he wouldn't listen. It wasn't until they did it in front of him one time, that he actually believed it was even possible. But, he still didn't stand up for her. Even when they called her a bitch and a no good for nothing piece of trash. He just tried to make her conform to their ways, because he just wanted all the people he loved to get along, and figured it was easier to change her, than his family.

Once he began to realize what was happening, he turned inward instead of dealing with it. He gainged a lot of weight, stopped going out, stopped caring what he looked or smelled like, and all he did was work. He became the total opposite of ther person she knew. He was angry all the time, and threw things all the time.

It wasn't until she left him, that he truly realized his situation, what he had done and how he had treated her.

So, the point is....they wronged each other. First he wronged her, and the she wronged him.

 

Yes, I've also noticed that and not only had it surprised me, but it actually scared me. It seems that the act of leaving the man and the condition of depression, which are results, have diverted attention from the cause.

I am not blaming said cause on the man, as it's always the decision of two people and in such cases as this one, a degree of turning a blind eye to certain things and hoping for a miraculous remedy is typically involved on both sides, but he was asking for everything he got. However, in the process of hurting himself, he also hurt someone else, someone innocent towards him, which is not to be taken lightly.

Reading further information makes me ask a fundamental question: was it really a marriage? Did both persons know to what they were consenting? Did they really know the other person, did they realise the duties and the burden they were taking on themselves, did they really want to face it all together... or did they hope to avoid the bad things somehow. Honestly, this doesn't even look like divorce material but more like annulment material.

It seems the man was so intimidated by his family that he lost the ability to stand up for his own convictions. I am stopping short of referring to his family collectively as a bunch of meddlers no good with their own lives and so desiring an authority role in other people's ones. If the man didn't see that to be wrong, he was one of them. If he saw that as wrong but chose not to do anything, sacrificing his own spouse for the sake of avoiding confrontation, perhaps he wasn't ready for commitment. Especially not for the traditional male role. If he disregarded warning signs and pretended the problem didn't exist until he could in no way ignore it without being too overtly in denial, it says something about his psyche. He had (or has) a problem to solve, more so than his spouse with depression.

The apathy that popped up later, up to the point of gaining weight and stopping to wash, showed that his way of dealing with problems was avoiding them and running away if it didn't work; pretending they didn't exist if running away wouldn't work, either. Aggression directed against his spouse who wouldn't match his carefully built system of defensive illusions only proves this, and it also showed that he wouldn't care for others' feelings in reaching his short-term goals. So much as I hate to say this, this is slave mentality: deferring to masters who can't be wrong and taking it out on the people even lower on the ladder. Which rests on assumption that the woman is lower on the ladder so far as marriage and family goes in general and that his spouse was lower than he in particular. While he wouldn't probably think that consciously, that's how his mind seems to have worked.

I believe that his egoism went far too far when he suffered his spouse being humiliated the way you described, with such words as were said to her. Normally, a man won't stand his woman being talked to like that. If any woman at all.

This is all too much about her fitting in his mold. It seems to me that all his sorrow and suffering concentrated around his own feeling of loss rather than compassion towards the spouse mistreated by family and, well, by himself. Berating your spouse isn't really a feat of love, after all. As he doesn't really seem the classic abusive bastard type, it's probably an underlying but overwhelming dissatisfaction with her not fitting into his family and their tiny world. A healthy relationship isn't about performing tasks, meeting requirements and fitting into standards.

The potential change in his feelings I can't explain fully. Maybe he has realised there's no way she and his family get along, maybe he realised what his family really was and freed himself from their influence, thus virtually becoming a new person. Can't tell. The remaining friends no matter what part can be a good sign, but it does look a bit as if he were acting wronged and hurt despite being himself innocent. This inevitably leads to more expectations and requirements.

All in all, I believe the woman should spend lots of time thinking before she gets back together with him. There's a need for honesty and calling things their true names if anything positive is going to come out of this relationship. While it's true the woman needs to deal with her problems, the man needs to have dealt with his avoidant approach to complications in life and his unhealthy dependence on the family, penchant for aggression and problems understanding the subtle notion of equality in the word "partnership".

There's a reason why I never get back together with a girl that dumped me or gave me reasons for dumping her, no matter if I think I love her. Seven years would probably change my perspective quite a bit, though.

 

A slight addition then to what I said is not only should the man be very careful but so should the woman. I seriously see no reason whatsoever for the two getting back together. Bury the ashes and move for gods sake. I have never understood why people cling to abusive/dead/bad/negative relationship but I reckon it is because people are so freaking afraid to be alone that they prefer being with an idiot than being alone. Well, you can never upgrade from idiot to something better if you wont dare to be alone for even a short while. As I see it both have been very very bad for each other and should stay away from each other.

 

Whoa...well, having read all that, Satiana, how important IS it for both these people to get back together?

Because if I was in either's position...I'd just call it quits and get on with my life.

IMO, there really isn't much left for them to work towards...

 

Its difficult for any guy to believe that his family has been doing evil things. Specially to someone as close and important as his spouse. Blood is thick.

This is especially true for a conformist type. Someone quiet and observant of his role in the family. The need to ensure the wellbeing and happiness of the family is ingrained, whether form within oneself or from outside forces. And the definition of family does not instinctively include the spouse. Not in the early years. This is doubley true if living with the parents.
The wife is an outsider to the family. She has to conform. The idea being that things have been well so far, hence no change is desired. Any complaints she might have are dismissed as adjustment pangs. Unfortunately, rigidity on the part of the males family can be counted upon.
More so if they didnt know of the woman till later, when marriage or atleast a (seemingly) lifelong bond of love had already been signed between the two. Resentment might find a place here.

Right here let me say that if for four long years he was oblivious to which way the winds were blowing, he is stupid. She is better off without him.

Dont blame the guy for his inablity to see the signs about what the family was doing to his wife. He was incapable of doing so, since his world would collapse if he were to doubt them. It takes a really selfish or independent attitude for a person to see his family for what it is. For others escape is the only choice, even if it be through suspension of reality.
Things can continue in this manner indefinately. For anyone stuck in this situation, seperation from the family is the only way to bring him out of the stupor of disbelief. This was finally forced upon him when she left.

Why did he not protect her when things finally came out in the open? It could be that he believed that the malise was restricted to just one of the family. And ignoring that one is easier than setting up a confrontation with the entire family (even when this line of thinking is clearly wrong).
A sence of being betrayed by his family could have left him in a state of inaction. Again, how can a family he cares for possibly not care for him and his feelings. Who he feels most victimised by, it's impossible to tell.

But when he finally came to his sences, he realised that wrongs had been done. He came expecting to see scars. He came wanting to heal them. Hiding them at that time was not very intelligent. Then springing them on him when he thought the nightmare was over left him dazed.
Alone he is obviously confused. He recognises he is at fault. But he no longer believes that he can right the wrongs. The last act in the drama really left him shaken.

It is because love still exists that he cant come close to her. He is afraid of harming instead of helping. She might be seeking help for herself but he needs it too. Honestly they do need to talk to each other if they really want to get together.

Do these two really need to be together? Its a call they have to take together and not seperately.