Spell Discussions: Level 4

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The higher the better. Sure are a lot of Alternation spells...

Confusion (Enc)
-I suppose this could be useful. But all it does is make them screw off for a while. They'll still attack you if you attack them. And having to chase them around is something that should be avoided.

Contagion (N)
-The only way to cure this is with an anti-disease type spell. I've never actually seen an enemy cast Cure Disease, but probably Heal.. or maybe not. The permanent affect is the interesting part. I wonder if it works on people who re-appear constantly, like that havarian guy.

Emotion (Enc)
-I suppose this could be used like the level 2 spell Resist Fear, but with an offensive edge it to for solo mages.

Enchanted Weapon (Enc)
-Meh, I thought this was pretty bad. +3 isn't that spectacular.

Farsight (D)
-Good for recon. Useful if you plan to lay up an ambush and stuff like that. Otherwise, no. There's better alternatives like an invisible character.

Fireshield [Blue] (Evo/Alt)
-Like Protection from Cold, there's just not that many enemies with cold attacks. However, that works will the damage when they hit you. But that shouldn't be the case as getting hit isn't something you should be doing. It'd be useful if you could cast it on others.

Fireshield [Red] (Evo/Alt)
-This with Protection from Fire grants you fire immunity. Useful for using fireballs wherever, and whenever without worry about hurting yourself.

Greater Malison (Enc)
-One of the important spells all mages should take in this level. Not much to say really.

Ice Storm (Evo)
-I suppose if you took Protection from Cold and the blue Fireshield, you could spam this spell. The damage is relatively low.

Improved Invisibility (I)
-This is a rather useful spell. Not only are you immune to direct-target spells, but you gain something like an AC bonus, and saving throws too.

Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Abj)
-Useful if you plan to use Lightning from the previous level frequently. It's pretty weak overall and becomes a lot less useful as you move on.

Minor Sequencer (Evo)
-This is another important spell for the level. Could load it up with something as simple as 2 magic missiles for some good instant damage, or 2 webs to ensure they're stuck in case they survive a saving throw.

Monster Summoning II (C)
-Like the first one, pretty bad. Even if you do want to use it for fodder and whatnot.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Alt)
-This spell is useless. Puts you in a held form where you can't be targets and magic does nothing to you. And even if you want to cast it on yourself, you gotta make a saving throw.

Polymorph Other (Alt)
-I believe this ruins any loot the enemy would normally have. It's rather useless with a not-so-short casting time and a saving throw without a penalty.

Polymorph Self (Alt)
-It's got a few uses, nothing spectacular though.

Remove Curse (Abj)
-I've never had to remove a curse before, and if I did, I have a cleric to do it.

Secret Word (Abj)
-Removes protections up to the 8th level, but only 1. Useful if you don't want use the higher level spells to remove protections.

Spider Spawn (C)
-I used to use these quite often, until I got to level 15.

Spirit Armor (N)
-This is THE armor spell if you plan on getting any at all. Frees up a bracer slot.

Stoneskin (Alt)
-You'd be a fool not to take this.

Teleport Field (Alt)
-This is like opening up a can of randomness.

Wizard Eye (Alt)
-Excellent scout. Who needs an invisible thief after this. You don't even need to enter battle after casting this with some summons.


Alright, time to list the good ones and pick out the best after.

Fireshield [Red]
Greater Malison
Improved Invisibility
Minor Sequencer
Polymorph Self
Secret Word
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye

No point in taking the Fireshield if you aren't going for the fire immunity. Same idea with Polymorph Self, you'll need some other spells to assist you in order to become effective.

I end up always choosing these 4: Greater Malison, Minor Sequencer, Stoneskin, and Wizard Eye. I use them quite often and are too good to pass up.

Spirit Armor is all dependent on what bracers you want to use (AC3 seem to the best at the moment). Though +2 more AC and +3 more saving throws against magic is pretty good.

[ August 08, 2007, 07:44: Message edited by: syuusaru ]

 

Can you contingency a Prot. From Fire, Fireshield, and Fireball at the same time?

Seems like a good combination for when you ever get stuck in melee...the fireball hurts the attacker(s), heals you (if you have enough fire res.), and the fireshield hurts him/them even more if he/they get(s) another attack off.

Haven't tried this though, not sure if it'd work as well as it sounds on paper.

 

syuu:

The above isn't correct. But that's hardly your fault, because the in game description is wrong.

1. You don't lose the loot. If you kill the squirrel, you will receive all of the loot the monster had prior to polymorph.

2. The enemy receives a +2 bonus to saving throws.

Decent spells which I think you haven't listed:

- Spider Spawn = Spider Spider + Web combo kicks ass.

- Ice Storm = Only damaging offensive spell on this level. Opponents don't get a save.

- Fireshield (Blue) = Can be used to 'suicide' enemies. Read up on the tactic I authored here: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=029169#000000

- Polymorph Self = The fact that you're able to use spells in a contigency while Polymorphed is truly awesome. A Tensored Sword Spider who is Improved Haste to 8 attacks per round, and is hitting with Ghoul Touch? Hmmm. I've also found the wolf polymorph useful for those few times when you have to resist cold.

- Teleport Field = There are two types of randomness: Good randomness, and bad randomness. This spell is 'good' randomness (or as Haer Daelis would say: Entropy).

- Improved Invisibility = 99% of spellcasters in the game can't target you, even when you attack them. Combine with Immunity from Divination to remain hidden.

 

Ah yes, forgot about Improved Invisibility.

As for the Polymorph, it mentions their armor and equipment molding into the new form, hence I'd assume the loot (equipped items) would be destroyed. But the items that they carry (potions/gold/jewels) would not.

Spider Spawn becomes useless once you hit 15. Web, however, does not. The spiders just become too weak and take damage from just about anything with hardly any resistance (if any). It's no long term spell.

Ice Storm may not have a save, but the huge radius of effect works against yourself, and the damage is far too low for a spell this level. Fireball/skull trap would do more damage, which are lower level spells. Much easier to control and instantaneous. Even after the save, it still does more damage than Ice Storm.

That strategy with the Fireshield is far too ineffective. Basically you want them to hit you so they take damage. That is, after putting up all your protections. Also, you'd be limiting yourself to melee enemies. That's a waste of an extra spell slot just for that.

Once again, with the polymorph and tenser's etc. Too many preparations for only a moderate effect.

You'll have to justify how Teleport Field could possibly be good. The idea of having enemies constantly teleporting around, and having the chance of them appear right next to you doesn't sound good to me. Makes things troublesome for party members and yourself if you want to target them all at once.

 

syuu:

Sword Spiders don't need to be powerhouses. It's like Bruce Lee from 'Enter the Dragon'... "Board's don't hit back". Likewise, webbed enemies don't hit back. And they are much easier to hit.

Sword Spiders have a 'stuck' Ring of Free Action, which pretty much means that they are immune to Hold, Grease, Web, etc.

I can say with 100% certainty that you get all of the items off a polymorphed opponent. Polymorph Other was a staple spell for my solo sorc.

You're essentially putting up protections that your sorc would use anyway, even if he doesn't employ the tactic.

Stoneskin? I cast that before every fight. Same with Mirror Image. And Fireshield. The only two out of the ordinary are protection from magic weapons and improved haste on your opponent.

An average of 192 damage over 4 rounds is huge. And it's not impractical... it works. I've put it into practice. You could double that by having two Fireshield's going at once.

Also note that Fireshield damage bypasses magic resistance.

Hardly. It works fantastically for difficult enemies. A held enemy = A dead enemy.

Any time a fighter/archer within 5 (?) foot attempts to attack you, they are automatically teleported away. Without the fixpack, they get no save.

 

RE: teleport field, I was of the understanding that it worked well on melee attackers (as it teleported them away before they can get close enough to hit), but not so well on archers/ranged/spell casters as being moved around isn't too much of a disadvantage for them (as offensively they are just as effective far away as up close). I've never really used this spell to much use (mainly because I've typically found spellcasters tougher than mellee types).

My picks would be:
1.Stoneskin - absolutely essesntial
2.Secret Word - cheapest way to get rid of 90% of all spell protections
3.Improved Invisibility - prevents your protagonist from being targeted by mages.
4.Greater Malison - improves your chance of landing those save or else spells. I don't tend to use it that much (and probably never in the unmodded game), but there have been a few times that it has been absolutally essential to one of my strategies.

Wizard Eye *or* minor sequencer - Neither are essential, but both are fun. Wizard Eye has some good, kinda cheesy uses in that it is completely invulnerable to pretty much everything (this has been tweaked in ToB). Minor Sequencer is kinda alright - double glitterdust or a couple of webs (followed by a spider spawn) can be cool. But yeah, comes down to personal preference.

Fireshields - Yeah, they can be used very effectively, but its never really fitted in with my style of play. Also I think that they tend to be less effective in SoA than in the expansion simply because Prot. from Magical Weapons isn't as great (many SoA enemies use normal weapons) and enemies don't hit quite as often.

[ August 08, 2007, 10:46: Message edited by: Stu ]

 

Top5:

- Ice Storm (Evo)
I'm not sure, but...wasn't this spell that slowed enemies when they got hit by it?
Anyways...I used it! Any damage is good damage

- Improved Invisibility (I)
There's no need for further informations is it?

- Minor Sequencer (Evo)
As said before,great for comboing lesser spells and quick damaging!

- Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Alt)
I don't know about you but this spell rocks! I used it on most of my enemys! to have someone locked up is great! love to see their tankers stuck and when they finally came back they were all alone ^^

- Stoneskin (Alt)
One of the best protection spells!

 

Confusion sucks in this game. It used to be the funniest spell because it makes people do weird things, but not here. If you're going to use confusion, Chaos in the next level is better.

Contagion, Emotion never casted before. Don't know when you'd want to use this instead of a damage spell.

Farsight, Wizard eye I suppose are useful if you play a summoning strategy. Also has role-playing value if you're trying to not know there's a battle coming up.

Fireshield, I used to employ that strategy in the old Gold Box games, but the damage got nerfed so I never tried it in BG2. But sounds like it could be done, with the right supporting spells. Does the damage stack with the evil cleric's lightning shield?

I think Monster Summoning II is actually worse than the Monster Summoning I. Fodder-wise, you can't get four guys. Power-wise, spider spawn is better. So not much reason to use this spell.

Otiluke's sphere is interesting, it's like a cheaper version of Maze, but the save makes it unreliable.

Polymorph spells I haven't used. Polymorph other sounds like a potential save-or-die spell. But how reliable is it, and is save vs polymorph easier or harder than save vs death... I don't even know what the polymorph self forms are.

 

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is highly underrated.

If you're an anti-reloader like me, then it saves a loooong trip to a temple, at least until your cleric gets resurrection. Someone in the front ranks finds themselves at 1 hp with no potions left, and poof!

It also works as a good decoy spell. Just send one of your party members into the middle of a battlefield, watch as enemies surround him/her, and then cast the spell. And as baddies keep on fruitlessly attacking, feel free to hurl a couple of fireballs down their way...

 

If you cast Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on a party member, do they get a save? If they do it'd be a tad unreliable wouldn't it?

 

Yeah, I can't see Otiluke's being used as reliable protection for a fellow party member.

It 'might' be useful if you summon some useless fodder with high saves (a Kobold) and then imprison it to act as a decoy.

Edit: Oh, and my Lvl 4 spell list usually looks like this:

Stoneskin
Improved Invisibility
Spider Spawn
Greater Malison
Fireshield (Red)

IMHO, Spider Spawn and Fireshield are not 'vital'. You could replace Spider Spawn with 'Polymorph Other', and still have a good selection for Lvl 4.

[ August 10, 2007, 11:48: Message edited by: The Mountain Hare ]

 

Otiluke's require a save regardless on who you cast it on, as I've mentioned in my initial post. It's not underrated, it's crap and unreliable as hell.


Farsight is pointless when you have Wizard Eye. If your eye can't reach it, what makes you think you can?


Ice Storm doesn't slow, it just does damage.


hare:

Polymorph Self is still pointless, you already mentioned having to use 3 different level 6 spells. Now you have to web them, have ghoul touch active and use then turn into a spider. If you got hit with a surprise battle/ambush, you'd be screwed with all the spells you need to cast before-hand.

A better and much more effective alternative, haste yourself and skull trap. You have the speed to run away before detonation. So much better and effective. And difficult enemies? If they are going to be easily caught in a web and held, you can easily do the same with a skull trap while they are caught. A dead enemy = a dead enemy.

All your doing is trying to turn a mage into a fighter with a weapon that can stun. There's a much faster and more effective alternative at higher levels for that. That is, if you want to play fighter with mr. mage.


Teleport Field works against you too. It's unreliable like Otiluke's sphere. They could all be far away, and suddenly come next to you. That doesn't make it good unless there's a guaranteed benefit, in which it lacks.


Your tactic with letting enemies kill themselves with Fireshield is weak. 192 damage over 4 rounds? How many fighters are hitting you? Where are the mages that dispel your magic? You'll be mince meat in no time like that. Let's say you did 8 damage back each time. That's 24 hits over 4 rounds. 4 rounds in which you could've been casting spells and they'd be dead before you hit the 2nd round. You're only up against melee fighters, according to your theory. You could outrun them with haste and just have fun picking them off 1 by 1.
Fireshield should only be for the fire protection is offers. But I suppose you could apply this tactic anyway.


Spiders doesn't have to be powerhouses, right, and that's why they are weak. Are you always going to web everything in sight? You think everything is always going to fail their saving throw? With Spiders, you make it sound like Web is a requirement. Which it probably is. The duration isn't very long either. It's useful at the start, but becomes useless later.


You know, a lot of your 'tactics' require higher level spells to make lower level spells more effective. You're going in the wrong direction. You want to make your higher level spells more effective with lower level ones. You're turning weak, into OK. While you should be turning good into uber.
Like I read something about you trying to haste your opponents so they hit your fireshield more often. Well, haste is friendly-only, so you'd probably want improved haste which only affects 1 target.


All in all, I've come down to the 5.

Party:
Greater Malison
Minor Sequencer
Secret Word
Spirit Armor
Stoneskin

Solo:
Greater Malison
Improved Invisibility*
Minor Sequencer*
Stoneskin
Wizard Eye
*Fireshield [red] (replace either if you've taken protection from fire at level 3)

 

The idea is to have some sort of protection up (preferably Protection from Magical weapons). With this tactic you're greatly enhancing an already great spell (prot. from magical weapons) by making it a powerful offensive tool rather than just a defensive one. It should be noted that you can most definitely still cast spells during these four rounds, and you'd be a fool not to against some of the tougher enemies. There are also plenty of times where running away hastened is not practical, be it because of the environment, or that the enemy is hastened.

Granted it is probably more powerful in ToB and with difficulty enhancing mods that make the enemy hit more often.

 

I found Otiluke's Sphere to be useful in encounters which involve one major monster surrounded by a team of minor monsters. Casting Otiluke on the major monster takes it out of the picture and frees up my team to focus on cleaning up the minors. Once the minors are blasted away, all my team needs do is buff up and wait for the Sphere to time out - and attack with gusto!!

 

Polymorph self is a good spell, an easy way to handle mages. The slime is 100 percent magic resistant. Kangaxx wasted all his spells on Jan polymorphed into slime without effect and gauths can't hurt you in in this form either.

Greater malison is heavily overrated.
The main thing it does is taking a round from your wizard out of combat without causing any harm to the enemies.
-4 penalty isn't that great. If you need it just to you follow up with one chromatic orb or finger of death the chance is at least 80 percent that your GM spell was for nothing.
If you want to weaken enemy groups for area effect spells like chaos you'll get a better effect if you cast chaos directly since the enemies are affected one round earlier, and you could even cast chaos twice during the 2 rounds you need to cast GM+chaos.
For no-reloaders gambling with "effective or totally useless" tactics is too risky, for reloaders desperate "enemy fails his save or reload" methods work also without greater malison.

 

I have to agree. I have found greater malison to be quite useless. Against the more powerful enemien, the saving throws are already ridicuoulsy high, and -4 really has no effect. They are often immune i "instant death"-spells, confusion etc.. And against "regular" enemies, or groups of enemies, their saving throws are usually so low that your spells work even without GM.

Of level 4 spells, at least soloing, BY FAR the most useful is stoneskin. In fact, it is usually the only lever 4 I use. Having a solo kensai/mage dealing massive damage and stopping only to recast stoneskin every few rounds kills anything.

 

-4 penalty is great if the enemy has good saves. Say your enemy has a save vs. death of 3. That -4 penalty takes it to 7. That means they are three times more likely to fail (before they only fail on 1 or 2, now they fail on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6).

So in this case it's definitely worth using Greater Malison before your Finger of Death or whatever.

 

I agree. I use Greater Malison all the time.

Preferrably in a sequencer with a nasty attack spell. Works fine for me.

I am particularly fond of using it with Aerie. I find a sequencer with Greater Malison, Doom and Chromatic Orb interesting.

 

A sequencer makes it worthwhile otherwise the casting time is a real pain.

Doom is certainly one of the reasons why Cleric/Mages are so good at what they do.

 

Greater Malison kicks ass.

Don't forget that you can hit multiple targets, and it can 'bend' around corners.