The bad of NWN2

@omnigodly:

No offense taken. Please also accept my comments below in the same spirit.

Well, you don't have to play the game for very long before you realize that role-playing strategies don't work. I always do everything I can before talking to anyone, since I fear that opening a dialog will initiate a cut-scene, or a movie, or what not. Anyway, I agree that a returning raiding party makes more sense than your first explanation.

Ammon Jerro seems to have plenty of motivation, and he's evil. Evil is a complex alignment. One who is evil is not necessarily devoid of compassion or altruism. Aside from that, it should not be that hard to write a story in which self-preservation, profit and power are inextricably tied to defending the world.

I'm afraid my ideology differs from yours on this point. I am perfectly comfortable demanding more from such an expensive game. Other games found better ways to restrict the storyline when necessary, and many even offered multiple paths. If I had wanted a book-based game, I would have bought one of those LOTR games.

 

@Catbert: As for the arguments against multiplayer - It doesn't matter. In today's world a 2gig download is only a few minutes unless you're still running a 56k. What makes the online community take off or not, is the people designing for online play deciding whether or not it's worth it. While the points you listed are a deterrent, I've found worse development tools released by games that hvae been manually improved (WC3 comes to mind, so does HL2/HL engines), to provide more efficient runtimes. Where there's a will, there's a way.


@Bombur: There are few cRPG's I've ever seen with open endedness and I've only playedone, Oblivian, and it's just about the worste game I've ever played, which is why I have that opinion, as off as it may be. This of course doesn't include MMO's like EVE that are very well done open ended games, (although it's boring after a shortwhile because of the lack of variety sometimes).

I did think about Ammon Jerro when I was looking into motivations for evil characters, but...
***SPOILER****


He doesn't stay evil. Even if his alignment might stay evil (I forgot to check after Shandra's farm after she was dead), but I'm more than sure that his alignment changed at that point. He was never truly evil, he was just trying to stop the King of Shadow's from killing everything by all means necessary (which changes as well at the end).


***END SPOILER***

I'll say this though, Catbert and Bombur are both right about this stuff being annoying. It's definately not enough that any of us have quit playing the game, but it is annoying.

 

***spoilers***

I think he was. He sought out pacts with demons and devils, and believed that good ends justified evil means, and murdered Shandra out of revenge when she no longer posed a threat, etc. He was evil in quality even though he may not have been *utterly* evil in degree.

Actually, I was thinking of other D&D based games. They weren't open-ended, but the stories had a lot more breathing room for role playing. These things are on a continuum. Some games offer more freedom, some offer less. I like the amount of freedom in the other D&D based games.

NWN2 seems the most restrictive of them to me -- even moreso than PST, where you can't even really generate your own character (except for stats). And PST had the advantage of a GREAT story, as opposed to just a good one.

 

That reminds me catbert... Something else that bugs me about NWN2 is that only you recieve the xp and your party levels up to your level no matter what. LAME. What about having encounters be harder single, but you get more xp/levels and so on and so forth? My goodness!!!

 

This is just a quick comment and I unfortunately do not have the time to elaborate: The way I looked at NWN, was that it was a sandbox with a little demo module on the side (Campaign). The expansions added more content to use in the toolset, but also showed users what is possible with it with an awesome campaign in HotU and a small, but classy one in SoU.

NWN2 is an improved sandbox, new graphics, new ways of making a module etc., with a campaign stuck to it. While I do agree that the campaign could be a bit more open, it is most likely the way they intended it to be played or perhaps even limited time, given to them from Atari. Who knows, it is still a kicker toolset with added module. The campaign itself seems to be a flawed diamond, one that could be improved upon until the end of time and maybe that can be the job for the community. Maybe it can make you look at your own module and see what to do and what not to do. All I know is that Obsidian tried to create a good game, because they enjoy creating games and playing them (Games by gamers, for gamers) but somehow fell short. They did, however, make quite a good one.

I've never been evil in a game, I just feel totally out of character - and it took me a lot of willpower to just try and be a Sith in KotOR when I replayed it. That is why I can't see the campaign from your side of the river

So, I dare you, I double dare you, to make a module, that is absolutely perfect in every way you want it to be. It takes awhile.

 

it was the same way in NWN1. you could even tell henchmen to lvl if they werent your lvl when you picked them up.

Secondly, while catbert think the Persistent worlds was the core of nwn1, even Bioware never thought so, they said so on several occassions, that persistent worlds never exceded more then 10% of the playerbase. for the large majority it was the singleplayer modules and small multiplayer modules that kept them in the game.
I think the same will happen with NWN2. hopefully we will "soon" see playermade modules, like twilligt, midnight, dawn series or the blackguard series.

Secondly, while I agree the nwn2 OC has some flaws and lack of roleplay options, all DnD crpgs has had this, in verieng degrees. Baldurs gate 1 and 2, was in some ways very free, but they led to the same ending no mather what. tob, was very linier, but did get you some nice different end stories.

Both icewind dales was straight as an arrow, with a few fun sidequests. the fun here lied for me in creating different parties etc.

So as far as i can see, most of catberts critic is really based on him wanting to create a Persistent world.

[ November 18, 2006, 00:29: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Gotto agree with the reply here. The guys behind NWN2 have pulled it off nicely before, and made magnificent games like BG/IWD. So why the he** do they turn the NWN-sequel into a consolish click-and-kill ultralinear bash-fest? It makes no sense. Hardcore RPGers cling to ex-BiSers because they're one of the few companies left that make (made(?)) good RPGs. NWN2 reminds me of the BG-games for Playstation.

N.

 

Just finished it -- the epilogue had to be the worst dramatic voiceover on any game I've ever played. Wrong inflections, wrong pronunciations of names from the game, and just lifeless all the way around. They do seem to have left it open for expansion packages. Dare we hope those won't be developed by Obsidian?

Anyway, I liked the second half much more than the first half. Not so much errand running, interesting workings in the keep, and an exciting final battle with an 8-person party.

I did feel they borrowed too strongly from prior games, though, especially PST...


*****SPOILER********

I mean, for crying out loud, your nemesis is the King of Shadows (a being who is only part of what he used to be, having lost his personhood to the ritual that created him) in the "fortress of shadow," and you can't escape after you kill him.

Also, what's with the sword and the ritual? You spend the whole game trying to recover and rebuild the sword, then risk your life trying to learn a ritual. And you keep getting told you need both the sword and the ritual to beat the King of Shadows. But you don't. Some aspects of the ritual are helpful, but you can beat him without it. And all I ever did with the sword was equip it for the bonuses. Never even tried to hit him with it.

******END SPOILER******

[ November 18, 2006, 19:05: Message edited by: Bombur ]

 

I think if the game ended at building up your keep to the end of time, it would've been a better ending... I mean, throw in a few more battles along the way and there ya go. An awesome fortress game. Like a wc3 Tower Defense, but more interactive.

Btw, did anyone ever even SEE the mages you were supposed to protect...?

 

I was looking the other way (for obvious reasons), but I think I noticed the occasional projectile spell fly over my shoulder toward the invaders.

 

Catbert - just so I can get some perspective on this:

Which single player CRPGs have you enjoyed playing?

I'm trying to get a feel for how much of your comments relate to the disappointment of what you feel are major backward steps in the progression of the NWN franchise, and how much relate to the standalone dumbness of this particular game.

 

I'd have to say NWN2 campaign is better than the first still - and I quite like many of the "errand boy" quests.

I'm actually going to have to go out and buy IWD and IWD2 now, because those are the only 2 games between BG and NWN that I have not played yet.