POLL: Is stealing Ribald's ring cheesy?

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I have to disagree. Saving and reloading are there for a reason. If it's not cheesy to use them during difficult fights, why does it make it cheesy in this sense?

 

Because in a fight you have to make many tactical decisions and when you have to reload after losing a fight you try new tactics.

Pick pocket has no tactics.

 

@Earl Grey
I could not disagree more with your last statement. BG2-ToB is no Arcanum with regards to thieves, that is true. But pickpocketing can still be modified by the armor you wear, your dexterity modifier, and the use or not of magical help like gauntlets of thievery, or potions. Spells like "Luck" and "Draw Upon Holy Might" (which increaes DEX) can also affect the success percentage. One can prepare the thieving character before pickpocketing someone and modify the outcome accordingly. By definition, that would imply that one is using "Pickpocketing tactics".

Totally agree on that one. Stealing a sword, or a full set of armour from a merchant's stash I would consider cheesy. But a nearly weightless ring?

In any case, not using an ability because it hasn't been "realistically" implemented is silly. I have no qualms pickpocketing commoners and nobles alike, and sometimes the rewards are quite interesting (i.e. a nice scroll). A light-fingered character can, and should, steal from others. It's a part of roleplaying that class. It is easier to make money picking pockets than breaking into houses. If the chance shows up, why not taking it? I stole Ribald's ring way before I read any walkthrough detailing what you could get from any character, and I considered it a nice bonus.

[ October 11, 2004, 16:48: Message edited by: Colthrun ]

 

You just drink potions to get max modifier, then attempt to pick pocket. IMO that's not tactics.

Dex bonus and DuHM is AFAIK irrelevant, since you can get the max chance of success just by drinking potions.
Luck has no impact on any thieving skills, it only affects THAC0 and damage. The manual is wrong.

The point is that by changing tactics you can find a perfect way of conducting a battle. This is not the case with stealing. When you know that a single action has a 5% chance of failure (I don't know the exact number here), then reloading because you failed is cheesy.

The same applies with for example Quivering Palm. Basing your combat with a dragon on the assumption that you will kill it with Quivering Palm and then reloading if you fail is cheesy. You can still use Quivering Palm in that battle, just not exclusively and you can't reload just because it failed.

With pick pocketing the same applies: if you fail you should have a back-up plan that does not include reloading.

[ October 11, 2004, 17:49: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

I didn't know that thing about Luck, I will add a post-it to my manual. Thanks for the info.

Cheesy or not, tactical or not, the option of pickpocketing is there to be used. Ribald is as good as any other character in the game. If his ring was not supposed to be stolen, it could have been attached to his body the same way Edwin's amulet is (now that is something I would love stealing).


This is off-topic, but the problem is that BG does not really offer back-up plans. You cannot bluff your way out of having been caught, none of your other party members can intercede for you, you cannot kill without being penalised in reputation, even if your character and the victim were the only ones on the screen, and no other was there to tell the tale, and giving all your money to pay for a stolen 50gp item is simply idiotic. Heck, you can't even surrender to be sent to jail, where at least you would have a possibility to escape.

And as per combat tactics, the moment you reload a battle you already know what to expect from that battle until that point: how the enemies will act until that point, what the mages will cast and in which order, what potions will be used, and so on. You know who to take down first and when to run for cover. Under this perspective, reloading in battles is as cheesy as reloading when stealing. It's like reading the last page of a book first to see if you will like the outcome.

 

Exactly!
This is what I meant when I wrote that I thought it was implemented in a cheesy way.

I also think that reloading battles you fail is cheesy, but there are degrees of cheesiness and IMO reloading a failed battle is not too bad.

 

Ah. Now i am convinced. since the consequences of failing a pick-pocket are so dire, you will *always* reload on failure...Right. No more pickpocket skill for me. Or traps. Soon, i am sure, backstabbing will be out too.

Would it be possible to mod BG2 so that you go to prison when caught, or can talk your way out of it, or that only a few people go hostile? Anything that would make failure reasonable.

 

It would be nice. But I think we have had a few discussions on the implementation of such restrictions on hostility.

As for stealing Ribald's ring, I did that on my first run through of the game, with no walthrough. I also stole the Ring of the Ram from Tolgerias in the government building before I knew he would drop another one. So I didn't feel bad doing this.

Ah, more innocent days.

 

I think from a roleplaying point of view, you should try live with the consequences of your actions. So if you try to steal, and get caught, and reload, i would think it's cheesy.

This doesn't mean you cannot-should not- steal at all; but you should be careful whom do you steal from. If it's from some guy on the street, and he catches you, what do you care; hide in the shadow and run away, or dire charm the guy (it's true that he'll be hostile forever after, but that's to be expected ). However, I would not dare try steal from somebody critical to my mission; or if I'd do it, I'd be prepared to live with the consequences (no more fancy stuff from Ribald ).

Reloading a battle is another matter - there is no way you can continue if die (or if one of the NPCs die permanently). I would generally not reload if I only got mauled; just try to be more careful from then on Granted, you could reload a battle to try another tactic (that's part of what makes the game enjoyable, finding different ways to squish your enemies!). But I would look to that as something out of the flow of the game, and actually reload my first try.

In the end I guess it's the player's choice.

 

Howdy all. Been around RPGs and pc RPGs a long time. IMHO any tactic that involves defeating the game designers by proxy rather than trying to prevail within the context of the game's natural tactical options is "cheese".

 

I don't find pickpocketing cheesy. But if you only pickpocket people you know to have interesting items then its big cheese. But if you pickpocket people regularily then its okay. Its whether or not you abuse the ability that determines whether or not its cheese

 

I thought again about this problem, and now I consider it's cheesy if you steal it right in the beginning, because it allows your clerics not to memorise healing spells and memorise offensive spells instead, making your party stronger. Or you may hire a pathetic (in the beginning...) cleric without consequences.

In Spellhold, you get such a ring, so when you come back, it's not cheesy anymore to steal Ribald's ring. And it nicely inserts into the story: you have such a ring now; you see the same at Ribald's finger: you know he has one; therefore your thief easily removes it from his finger (?)

 

I never let my thieves attempt a pick pocket or shop lifting without gulping down master theivery potions, so that they do not fail, so there is no need to reload, and it is not cheesy, it is strategy.

And Ribald is indeed a big prime target for pickpocketing!

 

No, it's not cheesy, the game offers the possiblity to do this, why not use it? Besides, the Ring of Gaxx is much better. It's not like Ribald's ring's mighty one HP every six seconds is going to make a difference in a fight. It's just to give your characters some of their health back between fights and not waste your cleric's spells and time sleeping.

The fact that you can't steal from Ribald's shop is ridiculous, this atleast gives you something in return.

 

So 1 hitpoint per round is enough to dismiss every healing spell?

 

"I never let my thieves attempt a pick pocket or shop lifting without gulping down master theivery potions, so that they do not fail, so there is no need to reload, and it is not cheesy, it is strategy."

I think even with potions, there's a chance you get caught. Then you have to reload.
The "cheese" factor doesn't play in the act of stealing, though: it's rather that you get a too nice item right from the start.

"It's not like Ribald's ring's mighty one HP every six seconds is going to make a difference in a fight. It's just to give your characters some of their health back between fights and not waste your cleric's spells and time sleeping."

Yes I said it in the first post that it won't make any difference in a fight, yet you say yourself you mustn't WASTE your cleric spells in between, which means they memorise other spells instead.

"So 1 hitpoint per round is enough to dismiss every healing spell?"

Oh yeah, believe me, I played a lot like this, passing the ring from NPC to NPC and never having to cast healing spells / pay for cures, using those nice big potions for emergencies.

 

If RP:ing, you could set a rule for yourself that you can reload after a failed pick pocket, but you can never try to pickpocket from that person again. It wouldn't be an ideal solution, but it would, to some extent, prevent you from abusing the ability.

And I have to agree that this specific item makes the game a lot easier... I've rarely used healing potion in my current game, and almost never memorised healing spells, because you can regenerate so many hitpoints just traveling between areas or even between fights. Because of this, I think I will apply my own suggested rule next time through (I hadn't thought of it before).

 

And what do you do during battles? Ressurrect afterwards? You can't regenerate from death.

 

Having the Helm of Balduran available in Irenicus Dungeon is more cheesy than that ring.

 

And the Ring of Human Influence is even worse. Especially when people take advantage of it by using CHA as a dump stat.

Personally, I find nothing cheesy about the Ring of Regen. Why? Because it stays on one person. I don't switch it around for free healing, I just have one person who's unusually healthy. Typically Korgan (for that old school Kagain touch) or Minsc (because he needs it).

I do believe that's your answer, kuemp. With the buttload of Healing and Extra-Healing potions in the game, I wouldn't be surprised if someone could make it on just those potions for combat and free healing afterwards. To say nothing of taking less damage due to increased offense from the spell slots most use for healing. Even Entangle can make a fair difference in a battle.