4th edition - rumours and discussion and so on

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Finished reading the core-rulebooks now. I borrowed them this time, from a friend who bought them (for the record). And I have to say: Its baaaad. Very bad. Seems to be aimed at kids, with an average of 40 IQ. Its so dumbed down it almost hurts to read. It actually IS world of warcraft in pen and paper form. I would go so far as to not even consider this a roleplaying game. Every hint of "realism" is removed as well. One of the cyclops monseters actually has 1 hp. Wich means a child can kill it with a spoon. Household animals can kill them as well. And every monster is presented via a "stat-card" as well. Kind of like Magic the Gathering.


They finally managed to kill d&d. Its that simple.

 

1HP? wtf? You're joking, right? What's the justification for that?

 

Your guess is as good as mine. 27 AC 1 hp.

 

I really don't like or agree with the way they handled minions. Even if they gave them noticably fewer hitpoints than a regular creature of the same level, it might be workable.

I disagree with the dumbed down comments. The rules are streamlined, but if you look at the combat system and how it works, tactics play a more important role.

The idea is to spend less time trying to understand the rules and more time getting right into the game...

 

Deathmage. Rawgrim Their are Minion of levels from 1st all the to 30th+ that have 1 hp. They have the same AC as a standard monster of their level but their attacks only do about 1/4 to 1/3 on avg & it is a flat rate. This way you as the DM can throw in 4 minions for every 1 creature that you would normally pit against your players( at least thats what the book says) 1 good burning hands spell & poof! up to 25 30th level minions dead!

 

Quote: The rules are streamlined, but if you look at the combat system and how it works, tactics play a more important role.

This is because they have turned it from a roleplaying game to a miniature game. Your character`s movement rate used to be meassured in feet earlier. Now they are meassured in squares. Mr Paladin to Mr Innkeeper "We are looking for a wizard who lives nearby. Any idea where we can find him?". "Sure, if you walk 50 squares south you will reach his home. Move one square east and knock on his door".


Quote: The idea is to spend less time trying to understand the rules and more time getting right into the game...

That argument pretty much only counts the first time someone picks up a game. Once you learn the rules, you get into any game really fast, from there on out anyway.

Quote: 1 good burning hands spell & poof! up to 25 30th level minions dead!

Hence my comment about "realism" earlier. A low level wizard, using the burning hands spell, can technically kill hundreads of thousand minions in a week. And that is lame. Plain and simple.

I am not bashing any of you guys though. Just making a point. Hope any of you didn`t take it the wrong way.

 

Largelly agree with Gnarfflinger in most things I have seen so far (only hread PHB thus far, waiting for the others to get in the mail). I will definitivelly give this a try with some of the guys here locally, they would probablly enjoy it more than 3.5 and such.

My main dissapointment thus far has been Ranger, once of my alltime favorite classes, beeing turned into "Rogue 2". I'm having huge problems seeing a difference between those two classes as is now, and the complete lack of the old druidic powers. I'm very annoyed that Ranger got power source "Martial" while in PHB2 Barbariand and druid will get power source "Nature" ... why didn't they swap Barbarian and Ranger there

(Naturally my WOW playing buddy loved the new ranger, and said it was "finally right!", but then again he sees Ranger = Archer and nothing else)

 

That is because 4th edition IS world of warcraft.

 

Again, I disagree. The DMG has more information about the RP side of the game. For the most part, Role playing is harder to rule on, and thus the PHB is not a manual on that subject. Role playing can't properly be reduced to numbers...

It says right in the PHB that one square is 5 feet. It only talks in squares when discussing combat. If an NPC talks in game mechanics, then the DM is either poor or trying to be funny...

WotC WANTS new players to pick up the game. That's how they make money and replace the jaded customers that are still pissed off about the thousands of dollars they spent on older editions of the game only to have WotC pull the plug on them for a new cash cow. I know at least one guy that has decided he won't buy the new books for just that reason.

That's something that D&D has done well from the beginning, but there are other systems that are much harder to learn than D&D. In my opinion, that's a strength, not a weakness. The complexity becomes not in the rules, but in weighing the options (and no doubt that with the continuation of the OGL, we will be bombarded with hundreds of sourcebooks withing the lifespan of the game).

Theoretically correct, but not bloody likely. The Example of the Cyclops Guard, a level 14 minion, had an AC of 27. The Best of first level Martial characters would run from +7 to +9 on their attack modes, meaning that they would need an 18 to 20 to hit. Even an 18 would miss 85% of the time, while an actual 20 would only hit 5% of the time. How much of fantasy is actually dumb luck.

For the Burning Hands, the Cyclops has a Reflex defence of 23. The First level wizzard tops out at +5 on the roll, meaning that only 3 in 20 are going to hit. Also, as a large creature, the Cyclops takes up a 2 by 2 square region. This means that for the 5 by 5 blast, would catch a maximum of 9 of them. He might get one, but there's no guarantee of that.

Rangers and Rogues both fill the role of strikers. Rogues focus more on dirty tricks, like backstabbing, getting into the flank and other tricky manouvers. Rangers are more the hunter types, picking the quarry and unleashing deadly accurate bow shots or ferocious two weapon strikes to take down their chosen quarry. There are definite themes in the powers of each class...

 

Quite a long post there Gnarf. The bottom line is this though: 4th ed is NOT d&d. Its not even a roleplaying game. And yes its dumbed down, alot. They even removed the skillpoints. As a board\miniature game, it might be ok fun. This is exactly what kind of game it has become anyway. What used to be groovy music, has now become something similar to the trash MTV pukes out now adays. Buildt to last for 1 week or so. And aimed at bandwagon teens. More or less.

A good thing though, is that the products from the previous edition will be very cheap from now on.

 

That's what happens when I have a lot to say...

Actually, it is. It has evolved from clunky, obscure rules to a simpler, more streamlined heroic fantasy experience that provides great challenge without excessive set-up time.

That's a move I am still skeptical of, but again, it's a concession to simplicity.

That paradigm shift will be the biggest adjustment, but the role play aspects are, for the most part, left to the players and the GM. BTW, did you look at the DMG too or just the PHB? Much of the RP aspects are covered there.

That business model works for Music, where they ask $15 for a CD, but when they ask $40 for a PHB, and $120 for the three core books, that model loses it's effectiveness.

If you can find them. There are some books I'd like to get my hands on, but doubt that I will find them. They are from other companies that used the D20 liscence, one book is lesser known (WWE in D20 system), and the rest are from a company that did not renew the liscence on the product line (Ravenloft books).

 

Yeah i have to say that the skills thing bugs me the most. Now all theives have the exact same ability in all the theiving skills. No having to sacrifice on pick pocket & set traps to enhance stealthy skills. Not real sure about that.

And dungeoneering skill is only available to rangers, rogues & wizards but is based on wisdom. You would think it would be open to clerics & paladins but NOOO.

 

Takes me between 5 and 10 minutes to create a character for 3.5ed. I don`t think that is excessive.

Simple mathemathics never was complicated in the first place.

I didn`t read the DMG yet, no. But with the removal of skillpoints and such, characters with the same class will be more or less identical. The only difference will be a feat or two, and what weapon they use. It certainly won`t make me feel I have made my very own, unique, character. All you have to do is write down on your character sheet, what the phb tells you to write down. I am pretty sure they will replace the characters sheets with stat-cards soon as well. They allready started with stat-cards in the monster manual.

Not when fanboys will pay just about anything for things that has the D&D label on it.

There are a bunch of sales up here now. I bought the Ravenloft campaign setting for 30 kroners. (1 dollar = 5 kroners, more or less). I bought 35 rp books from the same place. Cost me 1300 kroners. All were Forgotten realms, star wars, and rulebooks for 3.5.

I do belive I saw a bunch of Ravenloft books at amazon recently. The UK amazon shop, mind you.

[Take a look at my edits to see how to manually insert quotes into your posts - BTA]

 

Halaster - maybe, but a drow upsetting the plans of a uber-mage sounds... a bit implausible, so to say. As for El becoming a glorified expert... if it keeps up, the Forgotten Realms will really BE forgotten, soon enough. Some of those "developments" are more absurd than a pseudo-paparazzo newspaper. Anyway, I'll see if I can find 4e books around for a look - getting legit D&D material is practically impossible here, and I'm not sure I would buy something without having a good idea whether I will use it.

 

Less than that if it's a template that you have thought out before hand, have access to a limited number of books, and don't try anything new. If that's your style, then I admit it, you don't need to buy new books.

My first 3rd edition character (made prior to actually playing in third edition) took about 90 minutes, some of which was deciding on how to spend my skill points (Some skills maxed, some I wanted some points in but not wanting to max them out). If you're trying something you didn't play all the time, it will take longer as you figure out how you intend to play it.

It's not the math, but the decision making process. Sure there are skill you want to max out, and that would be a no brainer, but other skills, you won't need all the time, but you want some ranks ready. For those, you spens some pints but you don't max them out. It's a decision to make. That is the concession I see made to simplify the game.

Again, no. Most classes offer 4 at will powers at first level, of which you choose 2. While the individual player may value 2 higher than the rest, another player may value them differently. Likewise, there are roughly 4 first level encounter powers, with one being chosen. The same applies with Daily powers. Then there is still a decision with skills you take training in as well as which feat you choose. The whole is still greater than the sum of the parts, but Two players both making Dwarven Paladins may choose completely different powers, skills and feats, making the characters quite different...

You also discount backstory and personality. It is those two considerations that make a character truly memorable. My most memorable characters weren't memorable for what they had on a character sheet, but for their story and how I felt playing them. That has not been removed, instead, it is encouraged! A book can make suggestions, but they can't tell you how to role play...

I was doing something like that back in second edition. The Character sheet was for tracking the main information, but I also took another sheet of paper and had a column for tracking hit points, a list of weapons, complete with Modified THAC0 and damage. I'm working on a format for that with 4th edition as well, where I simply plug in the numbers into the powers I chose and I have the information readily at hand for when I need it. I would also be able to track ther powers I have used. The cards in the Monster Manual make the monsters easier to use. It's less time looking things up and more time plotting the course of the adventure...

I'm not sure. How many will just download it from a torrent site? And how many will, like you, tell WotC where they can shove their new rulesbooks and stick with older versions that they've already made significant investments in. How many are hesitating waiting on people they know and trust the judgement of before they shell out the money? I can see groups where one guy buys the books at first, they try the system, but the rest just look off the one guy until they decide if they want to pursue the new edition. This was a ballsy move by WotC, and There will likely be some backlash from the fanboys, no matter how good you make the game...

That's great, but when you live in the middle of nowhere with no credit card, it's harder to get the books...

 

Gnarf, your only like 80 miles fron detroit, which is D&D central !!! There are like a Gazillion D&Ders there.(yeah, i know thats a wee bit of an exaggeration but you get my point)
Heres one group with like 200+ members : http://dnd.meetup.com/78/
They may be able to help you find some people closer to your area.

 

I did meet quite a few Michigan players during my RPGA days, but since I don't drive (and am financially tapped now that I'm not working), I might not be able to get to travel.

When we finally get the High speed, I may look at ti closer to see if I can find some Online players...

 

Well, just had a loook at the 4E Forgotten Realms book.
I must say they changed a lot, the cities of luskan & neverwinter are in ruins, Baldur's Gate is now as large as waterdeep.
A lot of Gods & powerful figures have been changed to Exarchs(sorta like the old demi-gods) including Fzoul Chembryl, Thay is now a land of the undead with Szass Tam having turned all the surviving zukirs into liches.
Elminster is still around & immortal but has lost a lot of his powers now that there are no more chosen of mystra. Most of the seven sisters are dead but the simbul apparently still lives & resides in the dalelands(probably with old E')

 

I'm still stuck at home with nobody to play with! So many things I want to see in action, and no action to speak of!

But I am still eager to try it...

 

Ok hold up... Wtf is going on??

Luskan/Neverwinter in ruins? Explain.

I'm guessing a lot of people migrated south then?

I guess Szass Tam was going to do that eventually, although I thought a few of the zulkirs accpeted his rule? I always thought he would take a couple aside and amass a plan to take control not turn create an even bigger swarm of undead...

I also heard that the blood war had ended? So... What exactly happens in The Grey Waste now? Do the demons have tea parties with each other now?