Sex and Nudity in Video Games

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But Chandos, How accurate would it be to compare the people trying to design these adult games to Boccaccio or Chaucer? Or will they be more like Romance novelists and Soap opera writers? Or worse yet--Guys that haven't been getting any for a really long time?

 

It's funny how these threads tend to turn full circle. I made this remark in my first post:

Thank you for making my point. What they can do is read how it is done by some of these writers. No one is asking game designers to be "Shakespeare," but if they look at the old legends and literature of the MA, which DOES deal a lot with these themes, they may be able to come up with something enjoyable without becoming vulgar or perverse (like in GTA).

 

Don't forget the Middle Ages was also still victim of the Dark Age practice of "Droit de Seigneur" which allowed landowners... well yeah. While the channels for sex where different, they certainly where still there. Venice was apparently, during the Early Modern period (1600s), known for it's "high class prostitutes".

No time period was particularly good at adhering to Christian morals. Even the Victorian Period, the high point of decency and properness had it's issues with mistresses and prostitutes (among other things).

 

...I have yet to find many computer geeks that I would take any kind of romantic advice from. To assume they could write realistic romance is a stretch.

 

Illmater I think you have watched Braveheart too many. Although "Droit de Seigneur" existed in places it was neither very widespread nor for any lengths of time. Iirc it existed mostly in a few eastern European countries. Now I write this mostly out of memory of some TV program so if I am wrong I would love to read the wiki article.

 

Only watched braveheart once in my life.

Everything I've read about areas in which contained serfdom had something existing in some form or another, though I'm use to it being more of raping serving girls with more or less full support of the law then actually acting in accordance with a wedding. I forget when in the middle ages countries started abolishing serfdom.

France, apparently had issues with Lord/peasant girl "relationships" up until the revolution from what I understand.

 

That's a problem the industry suffers from across the board; writing? Who needs professionals for that. If I can design cool levels for Half-Life, obviously I'm also a capable writer.

Mhm.

 

Very much like slavery in the US. Slave owners often "took advantage" of slave girls before the Civil War in much the same fashion. Nevertheless, the slavery issue is not exclusive to the US, since almost everywhere slavery was practiced, slave women were targets for such treatment.

 

Well du'h! Of course the powerful could take advantage of those without power, nothing new or in this case, old about that. The basic premise for nobility was the ability to stab people with the pointy end of a sword so it should be even less surprising that they would have no problem with taking advantage of whatever female they felt like.

This is quite off-topic though, as for the topic at hand many people have stated that there is no reason there shouldnt be sex and nudity in games but then again there aren't all that many reasons there should be.

 

A noble ambition, but one that is highly risky as well. Even if they read the classics, that does not mean they will replicte that quality, leaving them something to ourage the critics (not that that takes much), but not of the quality to be heralded by the reviewers. The only people that might appreciate it would be the ones that want to see "boobies", but even they may be disappointed if I have guaged your standards correctly...

 

Hey man, was only attempt to illustrate the prevalence of sex within the Medieval world (and hence the appropriate nature of sex in a medieval fantasy game). Sorry if you where expecting some sort of divine revelation as that certainly wasn't what I was going for.

 

I felt that I was being too hard on game designers in my previous remarks, given what the industry must be like at the moment, and the market for more and more of the "outragous" and vulgar aspects of game design. I hate bringing up GTA, but it is a classic example of what game designers must face in terms of marketing games, actually being able to sell games on a large scale, and wanting to build something of substantial quality and intelligence.

 

Do you remember that program? Knowledge of the feudal practices in Eastern Europe is a bit sketchy to begin with - feudalism was not quite developed in most countries in the East and Southeast as the central government was somewhat more powerful than, say, in France or England. I personally do not know anything about particular sexual rights of the nobility, but I would be surprised if they were codified somewhere.

As far as sex in games goes, by the way, I do not mind as long as it is tastefully done and does not seem artificially included in the game just for the cheap thrill. Oh, and as long as the game is labeled properly - sexual content, tasteful or not, might not be appropriate for 12-year olds.

 

Ok, I think some of the problem here is that I'm only half arguing those texts aren't 100% accurate. I'm also arguing modern society is increadibly sexualized. What was the statistic I heard? By 6th grade something like half of all schoolchildren in the US these days have either had sex or watched sex? That's 9-10 years old. That was young even for the Middle Ages.

For the record, though, my general opinion is that Chauser = a clever version of Days of Our Lives and Shakespeare = ER with poetic prose. I won't argue these people were wonderful authors, but they did not depict an average day in an average person's life.

Sheesh, you're taking Hemingway as an average measure of the society of his time? This explains some things.

 

On one hand, I can believe your claim, though imo it as much due to progress than to any social developments - media certainly makes it much easier to see things, if not experience them. Where would a 12-year old in medieval Lithuania watch sex, unless s/he happens to see a couple making out? The closest thing would probably be the descriptions in Song of Songs in the Bible... presuming s/he can read in the first place.

On the other, that survey you quote is more than a little surprising, can you find a link? I can imagine a 10-year old watching sex, especially on TV, but having sex? Unless we're talking rape, I seriously doubt many children under 12 have sex - in the US or elsewhere

 

NOG - Again I noticed your selection, while ignoring Updike or Conroy. Notice I qualified how SOME of the authors represented OUR society in specialized ways. Again I will repeat myself:

That certainly doesn't mean that they represented ALL of society in ALL of its totality. We are only commenting on sex in this instance (and in games, btw). I like the way this went from a dialogue of using sex and romance as a controlling theme, to how "all of society works."

This was your initial statement:

The time period in question, at least in your comment, would be the MA (I hope). Of course, most FA games don't even have REAL historical settings, but let's set that aside, so that we can view how "sex was a less frequent topic" in the MA than voilence. Even so, you are commenting that the average person had much more violence than he/she had sex. That in itself seems a rather odd statement. But since that does not appear to be what you are arguing, it would seem then you must be arguing that sex was not a "frequent topic for discussion." A topic in what? the daily newspapers? Obviously, what they did have were legends and stories in which they used various topics of the day.

Most games have "stories;" that is what is really under discussion here - not let's make a game about "what the average person did for fun in the MA," which brought us to the literature of the MA. We now know that sex was a popular theme in the stories of the MA - like the Arthurian Legends in which the topic of sex and romance are controlling themes. Also, Chaucer wrote on the topic of sex and so did Boccaccio. BTW, many people were married at much younger age (most girls by 14) than they are now, so I'm not sure that your statement holds up to historical scrutiny.

BTW, most homes in the MA afforded little privacy, some had only 1 or 2 rooms, so there was a good chance that young children had already "watched sex" as well, since most everyone in the family saw pretty much what everyone else was doing anyway. But let's put the "watching" part aside from your statistic, since we know that actual sex at the age of 14was common in the MA (I'm not sure which part of your statstic is the actually having sex part). Since most girls were already having sex by 14 it would seem that they learned quite young about "THE TOPIC."

Judging by the first part of your comment it would appear that you are out of touch with reality, since neither Shakespeare nor Chaucer ever saw ER or Days of Our Lives. For the "record" the small amount you seem to know about literature is...painful. But remember we were discussing FA games here, which btw, have nothing to do with the average person's life in either our own time or the MA anyway.

The problem with that statement is that you are not "depicting" the average person's life either. I don't mean any disrespect by saying that, only that you keep referencing our own time (which you are obviously at odds with) and projecting it over some "idyllic period" (for you) in which people did not discuss sex because they were "all married and settled down" (whatever that means). On second thought, try John Updike.

 

As you wish - it actually does look closer to you definition. In fact, the link incdicate that places where it was formally practiced (it is documented in ancient Mesopotamia) had it being ritualistic, where the community was in support of the practice. There is no documented proof of the practice taking place in Europe during the Middle Ages.

Droit de Signeur

 

Chandos, ok, now I think the problem is more one of you looking at the gentry (and their books) while I look at the peasant (and their lack thereof). And, no, I don't count hearing your parents do it while you try to plug your ears and sleep in this discussion.

That's still about 4 years later than what's happening now. And sorry, but with slow internet I can't find anything atm. I may be able to later today.

Ok, I wasn't saying they were trying to copy or anything. That would be truely idiotic. I was trying to say that they are rough equivalents. Chaucer may have been witty in prose, but his topic of focus was remarkably similar to some of the worse soap operas today (ok, he made more fun of it than they do, too). Likewise, Shakespeare had a wonderful way with words, but his plots were, shall we say, lacking? How many times does he resolve things by killing everyone off (or almost everyone)?

 

Wait, so it is commong for girls to marry or at least have sex when they are ten years old nowadays?! That is the first I have hear about that. Pretty much all studies I have seen claims that the average age of the sexual debut it around 16 and 17 years old but apparently that must be wrong. Wow, ten years old and having sex, did not know that was so common but thanks for educating me NOG. Society must really be falling apart completely and those little harlots are right in the middle of it!

 

NOG - I don't believe that most 10 year olds living in the US have had sex. I would like to see some sort of source as well.

Regarding Chuacer, you may want to look closely at what is known as Estates literature. Hint: it deals with the different divisions of society in the MA. The Norton Anthology has a good introduction of how Chaucer uses this and what he reveals to us about society in the MA. But there are other web resources that will give you a general description. This may help you.

Lacking compared to whom or to what other works? Examples would be useful to qualify that comment.

A majority of Shakespeare's plays were comedies. Nevertherless, you tell me how many plots he resolved by "killing everyone." His plays fall roughly into three catagories: history, tragedy and comedy. That should get you started.

W. Somerset Maugham once remarked that most stories end with either a marriage or a funeral. Do you think he is correct?

IMO, Shakespeare's plots were useful in what they allowed him to reveal about human nature. In college I had one class devoted entirely to Shakespeare (and one exclusive to Chaucer and to Milton) and we did something like 13 plays in 15 weeks. We looked at some the common devices that Shakespeare used in his plays, such as his tranfering gender roles and the one "missing parent" and how he used some material which was already well-known within his culture. Shakespeare's audience would have already been familiar with some of the plots that they saw performed at the Globe Theater.

Since we have been ranting off topic long enough, I would suggest a topic in Booktalk to continue a thread on the literature of Shakespeare or Chaucer. But I'm still waiting for any response from you as how this relates to the themes of sex and romance in computer RPG games. I've aleady supported my notion that there is a literary tradition from the MA to support the notion that it would be OK. And you?