Guess what, another school shooting

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I don't know US statistics, but generally, if many people need guns at home to defend themselves, it's the problem of public security (and the state should take steps to improve the situation). As a European, I don't consider that normal, at least. But that's Europe. Different, as Tal also said.

 

I think this was mostly a mistake by the investigators and the ones who interrogated this guy. It was clear after Jokela that there was a bunch of people who agreed with the murderer and the police should have been more active in seeking out these people and terminating their licenses. Of course there is a problem with privacy laws that prevent certain social institutions from giving information to the police and these should be loosened somewhat. The guns aren't really the problem here though I do think that they should be stricter about who is allowed access to guns and make more serious background checks. I don't support an all out gun ban or even a ban on hand guns after this one.

 

Yet physical violence even by teachers escapes any kind of punishment if there isn't adequate proof.

And yes, personal experience.

 

In Finland bullying is a crime. Detention for small things still exists, but anything bigger and it's a police case. Severe enough for you?

It's "illegal" here in Alberta, too, but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff I saw go unpunished when I was in the high school system. Some kids I would have not been surprised if they had decided to eliminate their tormentors with extreme prejudice.

IMHO, too many stupid jocks who have never been on the other end of a humiliating experience end up entering positions of authority and perpetuating the problem by backing up the younger versions of themselves

"it's only a little fun! Boys will be boys! The kid will get over it!"

It's sad really. And not much can be done until decent people draw a line and say "enough is enough!"

 

Once again, LKD's point gives me another reason I'm glad that I live in a small town and went to a small school. The "jocks" were just normal kids, you didn't have to be a special athlete to play a sport, and you didn't have to be standout at any activity to participate in it. A lot of the same kids were in sports, national honor society, and ASB. At the same time a lot of the "jocks" didn't participate in those activities, so they hung out with other non-participants. This made it so everyone was connected and that if somebody tried to bully another kid, then one of their own friends would often be friends with the kid getting bullied and would stop it.

This brings up a question that I have right now... I know that some of the kids make "target" lists and such, but since most of these shootings seem to take place in big schools they can't possibly know everyone. So is it easier for the shooters to kill those on their "lists" and a bunch of nameless individuals? It seems like if they knew all their victims then they would be less prone to violence... or maybe that's just me.

 

It certainly seems to me that some shooters get pissed off at "the world" and after they eliminate 1 or 2 of their tormentors, they then proceed to take out anyone and everyone. Perhaps in a smaller school the likelihood of collateral victims would be reduced, but I have anecdotal evidence that contradicts that -- the Taber shooting that happened in Southern Alberta about a year after Columbine was at a very small school where everyone pretty well knew everyone.

 

We in the states don't have a gun problem, we have a VIOLENCE problem.
Non-firearm juvenile violent crime rates are twice that of 25 other industrialised nations. Non-firearm related homicides of children outrank firearm related 5 to 1.

as NOG & LKD have stated the crap that gets sweeped under the rug as "just horsing around" or "boys just being boys" is unbelievable. Also here in the US, we have a sports mentality in a lot of schools, if the teams are winning(or even worse on a multi-year winning streak) it is dang near a cart blanche what they can get away with. Especially in the High school & College areas.

A person can only take so much & hold just so much in until BOOM they take out all of their rage & frustration on those they feel are either 1) responsible or 2) should have stopped it from happening

 

Actually, in the US, it isn't so much the high rate of people needing to defend themselves as it is the low rate of accidental shootings or shootings in domestic violence cases. Remember, any reports you hear coming from 'America' are coming from an area (I think) larger than all of western Europe and parts of Eastern Europe combined. Many of our states are the size of your nations, so think of this as a ~50 nation union and you'll see what I mean. You (and we) hear a lot, but that's because there are a lot of people.

 

To add to what Nog said. Also remember that parts of the USA were still being settled in the early part of the 20th century. My grandparents pioneered in Idaho and I had relatives to built their own homes in Washington State in the 1940's. Neighbors got together to clear land and build houses. Alaska was being pioneered.

The wild west was still wild in the late 1800'[s. We are a young nation and old idea die hard. Europe has been through a couple of serious wars in that time while we remained relatively unscathed. About the only country we could really compare with is Canada.

 

I think it's good to make a difference between area and population, as you seem to be mixing them above (or I suppose you actually refer to the 'population of the area' when you say 'area', assuming some average density of population). Area is obviously not a too representative basis, so population (i.e. lot of people, as you've said) is a better approach. It's OK that there are many reports from the USA because it's big, but do you have actual statistics about the number of deaths-by-gun-accident (or totally, not just by accident) compared to the population size (e.g. how many deaths per 10000 people)? Because as far as I know, the crime rate / homicide rate is higher in the USA than in Europe on average, and in such statistics the population is taken into account (IIRC deaths caused by murder for 10000 ppl). (Of course, these are just statistics, I don't intend to conclude anything from it; for most people, it's surely a very secure country. E.g. my cousin who lived there for several years has always felt USA as a very secure country. OK, he obviously didn't refer to the "dangerous" districts of cities etc.)

On a side note, "50-nation union" and "lot of people" is a bit exaggerating when compared to Europe -- the population of Europe (though decreasing) is bigger than USA's population.

 

I would go even further here and state that I think the WORLD has a serious violence problem. Many areas are pretty well civilized and don't have wars on their soil (I'm thinking the US, Canada, England, France, Australia, Japan, and such places.)

There is an aggressive drive in humans, I don't think that can be denied, though the nature and extent of that drive is a matter for discussion. What I think is that for some people in these civilized areas, they don't / can't see an appropriate outlet for that drive. So they lash out. In so doing, they trigger that drive in others (their victims) who try for a long time to follow "civilized" norms but in some cases, when not given an outlet themselves, they can lash out themselves, often in a tragic and lethal manner.

The vast majority of us either manage to weather the trials of schooldays unscathed or we find an outlet for our pent-up emotions that is societally acceptable.

 

Baronius, that's a very good point. I don't have any statistics on crime rates at hand, but what I've always heard (don't know about the accuracy) is that the US has a higher murder rate, but Europe has higher rates of burglary, muggings, etc.

 

These murderers are always a sandwich short of a picnic Okay so you hate humanity and want to take out who you see as the worst of them, okay, fine, that's justifiable in a slightly twisted way, so what you going to then? Oh, kill classmates and then yourself? Well that's pretty lame. You're not going to be able to spread your beliefs and carry them out if you're dead. Ergo you will be forever remembered as a dumbass.

 

Well NOG, it all depends on what constitutes europe. Do the countries we call eastern europe count?
the latest table at nation master lists the countries like so for murder rates per capita

#1 Colombia:
#2 South Africa:
#3 Jamaica:
#4 Venezuela:
#5 Russia:
#6 Mexico:
#7 Estonia:
#8 Latvia:
#9 Lithuania:
#10 Belarus:
#11 Ukraine:
#12 Papua New Guinea:
#13 Kyrgyzstan:
#14 Thailand:
#15 Moldova:
#16 Zimbabwe:
#17 Seychelles:
#18 Zambia:
#19 Costa Rica:
#20 Poland:
#21 Georgia:
#22 Uruguay:
#23 Bulgaria:
#24 United States:

As far as total crime per capita, New Zealand(#2) , Finland(#3) & the UK(#6) all rank higher than the usa(#8).

Country most likely to be robbed in? Spain

Country most likely to be raped in? South Africa

Country with the most kidnappings? (this one really suprised me) the UK

Country with the highest rate of fraud? Germany

Country with the highest rate of drug offenses? Germany

Country with the highest rate of car thefts? Australia

Country with the highest rate of burglaries? Australia

Country with the highest rate of assaults? South Africa

 

Right.

What does that even mean? Is it reported crime (which only proves that the country has many brave civilians and paranoid old ladies calling the police), caught criminals (which means the country has efficient police). What?
Does the statistic include small law breaches, alcholics taken into holding for the night?

Most importantly. Did they remember that different countries have different laws? What is a minor offence in the first country is none in the second and gets you executed in the third.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1541699/Britain-tops-European-crime-league.html

Here's another source of statistics. It seems to contradict a bit with the information that Finland would have the third most crime per capita.

 

The stats i have used are from nationmaster.com, however the surveys may be older than the one you linked to.

Trellheim, looking at the site it appears to be all crimes that are reported to the police that are actually investigated(not just called in but what is determined to be actual crimes)
As for the per capita that is the number per 1,000 or 100,000 population, the site has finland as having 101.526 crimes per 1,000 people.
The suicide rates in finland are way up there, at more than 200% of the average. Are there a lot of people suffering from SAD* over there?
* - Seasonal Affective Disorder

 

I wasn't any more miserable in the winter in Finland

 

Eh? That seems a tad high.

That's what thought. We have some things completely messed up here, but it's still an extremely safe country.

I've heard that and it's likely one of the top causes. This time of the year is extremely depressing. I'm not "qualified" to say or even guess what the other reasons are.

It's mostly the fall that's miserable. Winter's great. No sun to ruin the day.

 

The list of countries that constitute Europe is quite clear. What are you getting at by this? (And more interestingly, what countries you "call" eastern europe?)