Praying at the... bull?

Remove all ads!

I came across this news on other sites, and at first I thought it ludicrous. Then I looked around for confirmation, and this is the closest that I got.


Prayer Needed for Global Economies

...

For these and other reasons Cindy is calling for a Day of Prayer for the World’s Economies on Wednesday, October 29, 2008. They are calling for prayer for the stock markets, banks, and financial institutions of the world on the date the stock market crashed in 1929. They are meeting at the New York Stock Exchange, the Federal Reserve Bank, and its 12 principal branches around the US that day.

“We are going to intercede at the site of the statue of the bull on Wall Street to ask God to begin a shift from the bull and bear markets to what we feel will be the 'Lion’s Market,' or God’s control over the economic systems,” she said. “While we do not have the full revelation of all this will entail, we do know that without intercession, economies will crumble.”

Hokay. I'm not very comfortable with asking the Almighty to fix your economic mess - though I guess a slim hope is better than no hope at all. I do have an iissue, mind you, with expecting Him to run the economy. First, somehow I don't see how religious guidance and market policies mix. And while God himself knows how the market works anymore (apparently Greenspan doesn't), I don't really think asking our oracles or preachers how to invest is the best idea. Besides, He seemed pretty content to let us take care of our financial interactions the last time - Jesus wasn't very keen on riches being that important, and didn't mind rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. The idea of trading in the temples didn't seem to be to his tastes, either, and I doubt that temples in the trading hall would be much of an improvement.

But the real kicker is... come on, people, praying at a bull is just too symbolic. Way too symbolic, even if it's only bronze this time (then again, some coins do use bronze). That kind of thing didn't seem to go well with the Lord the last time, did it? For all we know of what they were praying, it might have been a better diet, fixing the barter economy (I have it on reliable sources the price of poultry had been skyrocketing after the mobile hencoop fiasco of 1326 BC) and, oh, having the old man come down from the ...... mountain some time that year. There's a saying that one shouldn't pull the devil by the tail - and I'd say it might well work for the higher powers, too

Seriously speaking, good grief. While I can't say I can identify with radical Christians, somehow this would seem to be in a VERY bad taste even if it was canonically sound. I thought the Bible was mandatory reading for Christians, and the passage with the golden calf episode was a very powerful one imo.

 

I saw this last week. This "prayer" is definitely not directed towards any god I find worthy of worship!

 

A little bizarre, to be sure, but I'm sure a lot of people pray that God will intercede -- in HIS way, not the way some guy says God has said -- and help the poor all over the world. I don't see it as idol worship, though I do get your point, Shaman.

My religious leaders have given the members of my faith the same advice (when it comes to money) for several decades. They have basically said:

1: Stay out of unnecessary debt
2: Live within your means
3: Share with the less fortunate
4: Be prepared for emergencies large and small by having a supply of food and other necessities.
5: Save money for emergencies
6: Avoid materialism.

Not exactly wild things to advise, IMHO, and I certainly pray to God to inspire financial leaders to take this sort of advice!

 

I couldn't have said it in a more concise way.

Does "HIS way" mean "not in the way you say but in the way I say"? Because, considering God hasn't been in the habit of directly speaking to people recently, there really is no such thing as "his" way. Everything is the way some guy says God has said - the Bible says that God said this, Jesus says that God said that, Mohammad says that God said... (arguably this is a theological debate that goes way beyond the scope of the original topic)

Aside from #3 and #6, all the others are just plain common sense. #4's a bit too paranoid at this point (the economy's not that bad) but it may come down to this if things really go down the drain very fast (unlikely at this point, but who knows). #3 isn't exactly the best way to take care of your monetary affairs, but I'm the last person you will see making fun of altruism. Really #6 is the only one that strikes me as typically religious, but even this one has an easy secular interpretation as a variant of #2.

Good luck with that... they're not exactly the ones who will need to prepare for emergencies. If the economic system crashes, you can bet that the leaders will be among the few who will still be filthy rich. I cannot imagine why they would want to give up that wealth (and if you're expecting altruism out of these people... well... keep praying).

 

Well, to be honest I am pretty sure they were praying to God, and I have not seen any news about a plague of snakes hitting the US, so I think we need not see some smiting soon. Still, I think this a matter of very poor taste - and quite weird.

 

Ziad, I think #4 is more oriented toward sudden hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, etc. I don't know anywhere on earth that is free of natural disasters that make a ready supply of a week or two's preservable food a good idea.

To anyone who believe's the Bible's God (or the Torah's for that sake) is silent on economics, read Proverbs, it has some insightful suggestions on handling money. All in all, I certainly believe God has some good advice on how we handle our money, and wants to see us use it wisely, but I think this prayer is useless unless they are willing to change the way they handle money themselves. Remember, repentence is an act of the heart, mind, and body.

 

Why would any gods of any kind even bother concerning themselves with capitalism, unless they were the god of greedy ignorance? Certainly not the god of the bible, like jesus or whatever, because he, if he even existed, was anti-establishment and definitely would have nothing to do with the perversion of the original christianity that american christianity is currently.

 

In the context of a natural disaster, I agree that the advice makes perfect sense. In the context of economic recession (which is the context it was presented in), it's being way too careful (though, as I already pointed out, who knows what may happen)

That's an interesting point actually. Considering that love of the money is the source of all evil, that materialism is bad, and so on, why would God respond to a prayer that asks him to basically reinforce an institution (the prayer is specifically for "the stock markets, banks, and financial institutions") that's built on nothing but love of money and materialism?

 

Ok, a few things to clear up, the God of the Bible isn't anti-establishment, just anti-corrupt establishment (which is most of them). Also, as Ziad said (though he didn't emphasize it), the Bible says that the love of money is the root of evil. Having money, even having a lot of it, isn't bad. If you earn a lot of money and are very generous with it, you are behaving in a very Christ-like way. If you hoard what you have, even if it is very little, you are being very un-Christ-like. Remember the parable of the talents: the servants who invested their money and earned interest (capitalism) were praised and rewarded while the one who hoarded it was criticized.

 

A little more on #4 and 5 that LKD talked about, but having that extra food stored ahead can help ease the burden of a sudden job loss. Even an extended lay off can tax a budget that's already at it's limit. Having extra money in savings can help with a sudden emergency medical bill.

It's #2 that has been too widely ignored. By people going into debt for a better house and car than they can afford, they rack up larger debts than they need (see #1), and thus find it harder to have the savings at the ready. When the emergency comes, like a job loss or medical emergency, they are forced to default on these loans. Overtime this adds up until financial institutions buckling under the weight of all these lost billions...

It's not about praying for God to fix the problem, but rather listening to God and learning how to protect yourself and how to prevent such calamities in the future. Honest, we're not nutters. Even if you don't believe in God, listen to what we say and judge the issues for yourselves...

 

I thought #4 is basically a subset of #5. Unless you live in a very underdeveloped country or in an agrarian region, having some money saved for a rainy day pretty much ensures you won't go hungry. Well, perhaps a first aid kit and something in the cellar could help too, if you are worried about disasters of some sort, but from an economical standpoint keeping some savings is being prepared.

 

Huh. I knew that I'd get a comment like this -- that's why I didn't mention that the church recommends having a TWO YEAR supply of food on hand. Now I know that that conjures up an image of Montana Militia in some minds, but hear me out. Disasters can strike out of the blue. What looks like a society that "will live forever" can possibly come crashing down in a very short time - -I heard a fellow from Sierra Leone I believe it was* who said that he imagines his life was similar to that of an American's -- peaceful, no serious trouble in sight, and then BOOM! the society he was living in simply disintegrated. He was only about 10 at the time and everything he knew changed in about 2 weeks. He ended up as a child soldier forced to do some nasty stuff.

This is not to say that the church advocates destroying society -- we don't, at all. But we do recognize that bad things can happen to good people (as symbolicly / dramatically represented by the experience of Job) and we believe that God has told us to do whatever is within our power to be prepared.

Sad thing is, many of us do not have a 2 month supply stored, let alone a 2 year one -- it's something we strive for but often do not achieve.

*I could have the country wrong -- it was on the radio a few years ago.

 

Another thing that our religion recommends is a 72 hour back pack, with clothes, food, water, a first aid kit, a flashlight, or anything else you'll need to survive 72 hours. They suggest that you keep it where you can grab it on the way out of the house and move. This is so that you are ready for an evacuation.

 

NOG, I see a contradiction here. Love of money is bad, hoarding money is bad, being generous is good - fair enough. But investing and earning interest - why is that classified with generosity and being good? Capitalism is about making more money for money's sake alone, which is the most extreme form of loving money that I can think of. When you hoard money, you love your money so much you want it all there. When you invest and get interest, you love money so much you're never satisfied with what you have and always want to make more. How's that not materialistic and not love of money?

 

The essential nature of capitalism is to increase capital, which is greed and love of money. It is nothing more than the merchants being 'good' merchants, maximizing their gains solely for the purpose of maximizing their gains. I know how game theory works, and it is inherently selfish and ego-centric. This is not what the Jesus character in the Bible talked about. If I recall correctly he said things that were socialist in nature if anything at all. You have two cows and your neighbour has none, so you give him a cow. That is the social conduct that the Jesus character talked about. You do not care for your own welfare because God will take care of it, you do not build up treasures on earth were rust and moths eat at it, but rather you build up treasure houses in heaven etc etc, because if God can take care of the needs of a sparrow, how much moreso would he take care of the needs of humans who trust in him? Is this not in the Bible?

 

Ziad, I think you misunderstand the idea of strict capitalism. What you're talking about is the modern greed-capitalism that arose in the 80's and never really died. Strictly speaking, capitalism is just the economic system where those that earn goods/services/money get them according to market demands, instead of an outside force trying to make sure everything's 'fair'.

Wise investments represents a wise use of your resources (the unit of money talked about was called the 'talent' after all). Helping an intelligent and capable friend start a small business you know will take off isn't about greed, it's about using your money for something good. Remember, money is just a tool, a resource, and the more you have of it, the more you can do with it. The problem comes when, as you said, you are raising money for yourself, or simply to have it, and not to do something good with it.

Nataraja, that's a pretty good understanding of Jesus, but not all of Him. Jesus didn't preach that you should ignore your own needs and wants at all times and simply trust God to take care of them. Instead, he preached for you to consider the needs of your neighbors just as important as your own needs, do everything you can to fill them both, and trust God to make up the difference. It was a radical departure from society of his time, and a radical departure from society today. The idea wasn't to completely give up every aspect of living your life for God to take over, but to give God what He asks for and not hold back on that for your own sake. God hasn't asked me to give 100% of my paycheck to the poor, so I don't, but He has asked me to give more money to charity than I could afford and when I did it, I found I could afford it.

 

But the essential message of the Jesus character is socialist and not capitalist, correct?

(I am not a socialist, just making that clear. Im a 'state of nature'-ist.)

 

I think Christ's message had some "socialist" elements in it, if you consider the commandment to "love your neighbour as yourself" a socialist principle. However, I am of the opinion that care for your neighbour can exist in any economic or political system. To put it another way, while Christ used very concrete examples -- including money -- in his parables, he said quite clearly "my kingdom is not of this world." He was talking about the intent of your heart being on spiritual things, not solely about physical things.

Of course, he would have said that you show that condition of your heart by "feeding my sheep" -- that is, caring for other people. But he never advocated forcible, involuntary taxation and state re-distribution of wealth, which is a facet of some forms of socialism.

If fact, I would claim that the essence of Christ's teaching was that people should voluntarily give of their capital, and be honest about it. The following story is, IMHO, illustrative. It comes from Chapter 5 of the Acts of the Apostles:

It wasn't so much that they hadn't given the full price of the land, but that they lied about it to God. if they had only given a portion, of the price, and then been honest about that and said "we're only handing over 5% of the value here", there wouldn't have been a problem. It's the honesty in the heart that is important.

 

Considering that Christ was a moral preacher and not a political preacher I consider it improper to cathegorize him by political or economical terms. Socialism is a political idology how to run a state and a government it's not equal to solidarity in general terms. Calling him a capitalist would of course also be equally improper.

 

To be fair, the early Church was blatantly socialist, as any reading of Paul's letters and the book of Acts will tell you, but, as LKD pointed out, it was voluntarily so. No, Christ wasn't a socialist, he was a care-giver. He wasn't a capitalist, he advocated responsible and careful use of your resources. He also wan't a republican, democrat, or anything else. You can extract a lot of good principles on good governance from the Bible, but it isn't on anyone's side. You can work any form of government I've ever heard of with those principles, including a dictatorship.