Evil cleric of Talos

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Why should I invest feat points in GF Transmutation (Cleric of Talos)? I was planing to go with Scion od Storms and GF Evocation.

 

If you want a powergamed cleric with elemental feats, it had better be human. Otherwise getting 2 skillpoints/level will take 12INT...
Almost all of the Stormlord's domain spells are offensive, and these can all be enhanced with spell focus feats.
Transmutation type spells (3) are Shocking Grasp, Static Charge and Tremor.
Evocation spells (7, 4 on same levels) are Gedlee's Electric Loop, Lightning Bolt, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning or Whirlwind, Acid Storm or Fire Storm.
Personally, I think the focus in Evocation will become more practical during the game.
Later on you'll get around to focusing in a second spell school, but I still wouldn't advise you to choose Transmutation. I'm a big fan of the Tremor spell especially, but it has some big competition...
Necromancy spells (5, 2 on same level) are Death Armour, Slay Living, Destruction, Horrid Wilting or WAIL o/t BANSHEE!!! nuff said!
Now in a recent post about spell DC, you can read that Slay Living and Destruction create bugged touch-attack weapons that don't benefit from Spell Focus feats, but for WotB alone, I'm personally willing to forego Transmutation with Talosians.
Still, because Talosian attack spells are from 3 major schools, I think they need quite a lot of focus feats. I prefer Morninglords of Lathander, because all they need is GSF:Evocation, and presto! - all offensive spells work at maximum efficiency (except Holy Smite, but I believe this should have been coded as Evocation not Necromancy, just like Unholy Blight is).

 

For the few offensive spells your cleric can cast per day it's not worth taking a spell focus. Even the +3HP feat would be more useful. Better feats like dodge or improved critical, you attack or are attacked more than once per rest.

 

well... it's all a matter of opinion of course.
Of the 18 domain spell choices Talosians get, only 2 don't benefit from Spell Focus feats. Naturally clerics should primarily be considered healer/buffer/summoner. But not taking Spell Focus feats would make their domain spells much less effective. GSF: Evocation is like an extra +8WIS on your casting DC, when you cast a Lightning Bolt.
Now there are good combat feats naturally, but IMHO Spell Focus is a good option for a (battle)cleric with so many offensive spells. Personally, I choose my cleric orders carefully, and think taking 2-4 Spell Focus feats is worth the effort.

Correction: Since Slay Living and Destruction are bugged, there are in fact 4 spells that don't benefit from Spell Focus feats. But they're all poor spells, so you'll be choosing the other ones anyway.

 

Even a level 30 priest of Talos can cast only 9 domain spells per day, at least 2 of them don't benefit from any spell focus. Early on you can only cast the low level spells and when you gain access to the higher level domain spells the offensive low level domain spells become useless since you can do more damage with a throwing hammer, so only 1-5 of those spells per day remain.

GSF in a school is only useful for the spells which are in this school and allow a saving throw. You need 6 feats for taking the three GSFs which affect the domain spells and even won't make their domain spells much more effective.
Even then +4 to DC only means that at most every 5th spell average the outcome is different, usually full instead of half damage.
To go back to the lightning bolt example, you have to rest 5 times for being able to cast 5 lightning bolts of whom 1 does extra half damage because of the GSF feat.

Since rapid shot is the only feat which can make a big difference you won't cripple your character by taking some GSFs for roleplaying reasons, other feats like dodge or improved critical aren't earthshaking, but still more useful.

 

I don't think that +4 DC immediately translates into 20% more effectiveness. Since you'll cast spells against monsters with high saving throws, this bonus should be more valuable than that. And even if it did, wouldn't a 70% success rate be far preferable over 50% success?

If you decide that a single spell per level isn't worth getting worked up over, then that's your playstyle. But many players appreciate if their cleric can pitch in with offensive spellcasting.

 

The +4 DC actually translates into less than 20 percent effectiveness. Lets consider a spell (level 5 lightning bolt for example) which does 5d6 damage (17.5 damage average) when no save is made and half of it when the save is made.

90 % no save, 10 % save (0.9 * 1.0 + 0.1 * 0.5) * 17.5 = 16.625
70 % no save, 30 % save (0.7 * 1.0 + 0.3 * 0.5) * 17.5 = 14.875
50 % no save, 50 % save (0.5 * 1.0 + 0.5 * 0.5) * 17.5 = 13.125
30 % no save, 70 % save (0.3 * 1.0 + 0.7 * 0.5) * 17.5 = 11.375
10 % no save, 90 % save (0.1 * 1.0 + 0.9 * 0.5) * 17.5 = 9.625


So for +4 spell DC you can expect to do only 1.75 extra damage with this spell to the enemy if you ignore enemies whose save bonuses are so low/high that the GSF won't make a difference. The difference isn't big, it's definitely less than 20 percent. It's wrong that a cleric of Talos can pitch in with offensive spellcasting if and only if he spends feats for GSFs, even spending 6 feats for GSFs to improve 1-5 domain spellcastings per day won't make a big difference.

 

The last two numbers are reversed I think. The bonus would be roughly 2.05 damage.
By your reasoning, even arcane spellcasters would be better off focusing on other feats, like defense, saving throw bonuses, or even combat...
But the fact is that these feats do make offensive spells more effective. And Spell Focus is a lot easier to acquire for a cleric than elemental feats (Scion of Storms for Talosians, naturally), because clerics don't have easy access to skill points. Unless they're human of course.
It boils down to how important you find offensive spellcasting. I think it's worthwhile, and it still ranks in the same level as the combat feats, even for a battlecleric.

 

1. correct.
2. No. There'S a big difference. A nuking sorc will be able to cast 6 lightning bolts per day while a priest of Talos will only get one. That's a big difference. Clerics get more attacks than sorc, therefore combat feats benefit them more. I consider saving throw bonus feats useless btw.

 

Well you sure have an interesting perspective on things, I found your figures quite enlightening. Could you perhaps explain how you came to those results, step by step?
What you might be overlooking, is that the cleric has its regular spellbook as well, and these spells are also enhanced. In the case of the Talosians' GSF:Evocation, the Evocation spells in their regular book mostly are at the same spell level as vital cleric spells: Unholy Blight & Recitation compete at lvl4, Flame Strike, Iron Skins & Raise Dead compete at lvl5, Sol's Searing Orb & Heal at lvl6, Fire Storm and Mass Heal at lvl8. I prefer Morninglord of Lathander, because nearly all its domain spells are Evocation. But in the case of Talosians, Spell Focus feats are slightly less efficient.

Even more poignant, is the Dreadmaster of Bane's GSF:Enchantment specialisation. Enchantments are usually 'fail save or NO effect', which makes the difference greater. Enchantments are also readily available on the less critical cleric levels: Bane, Command and Doom on level 1, and Hold Person lvl2. These low level spells should not be dismissed, as they can help out a lot throughout the game.

Naturally I'd choose neutral Talosians and Banites to still be able to do Spontaneous Casting (shift-click to convert into corresponding Cure ___ Wounds).

I also don't agree with your reasoning that domain spells aren't important because they're just 1 per level: By level 5 and up, a battlecleric only gets one new spell when it gets access to a new spell level. But Talosians also get a high-level offensive spell too, such as Chain Lightning on level 6. The Banites' Greater Command on domain level practically give my party a free enemy encounter, despite not having an arcane caster with GSF:Enchantment.

 

I've upgraded and corrected my previous post to show how I got the results.
Feats which help to survive like dodge are important for a character who can raise everyone from the dead except himself and rapid shot and improved critical will make a difference more often than a spell focus in one school.
There aren't many effective playstyles for which taking spell focuses will make a bigger difference than other feats for a priest of Talos.

 

I think I understand the calculations.
You didn't take account for rolling 1s/20s for save, which will automatically fail/save regardless of Spell Focus. This would actually make the percentage of saving throws that are different be just 18%.
I guess you win the argument, Spell Focus is often lower priority than I expected. But for Banites, GSF: Enchantment is still high priority.

For me, the most important battlecleric feat is Improved Critical. This requires +8 BAB, so can't be taken before level 12, or cleric10/fighter1 at the earliest. I see Power Attack & Cleave as vital as well. But Dodge not so much; it's not going to change much if I take it sooner or later. My frontliner clerics won't be firing arrows often, since they cast spells and melee at critical times. This means Spell Focus will come into play at crucial points in the game. So Rapid Shot is low priority too. IMO arrows either hit easily or not at all - I use them for low threat situations, and then it hardly matters if they hit extra. This means I have room for 2 feats before level 12, perfect to fit in a Greater Spell Focus.

 

Thank you all for the effort.
Since my evil cleric is a drow (drizzit little sister ), she will not be the best "battle cleric". Scion of Storms feat and some hammer or flail with eletrical damage, should do the trick.

 

I may be mistaken, but the Scion of Storms feat doesn´t give bonus damage from weapons, only casting from scrolls and spellbook, I think. So don´t go out of your way to find an electric weapon. Unless it involves roleplaying
Officially, the story is set about a generation before Drizzt, so she's more likely to be an aunt