Unfinished Party

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Yes, the UPP is outdated, and in fact was specifically intended for a party that would go into HoF. However, I figured that taking the 4 Fighter levels early would help get some feats early that I really want to have for as much of the game as possible, such as Dirty Fighting, Cleave, ect.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. To me, Mage = arcane spellcaster, not specifically a Wizard (maybe I'm wrong there). So technically a Half-Elf Pal1/Mnk1/Rgr1/Sorc X would fit that description. I'm still not sure I want this character to be a saving throw bad ass, as that is what my main Paladin is for, although two mage killers would certainly come in handy. Again, this character is extra and shouldn't outshine the others. What exactly would I be losing/gaining with a Ftr2/Rgr1/Sorc X vs the Pal1/Mnk1/Rgr1/Sorc X? Saving throw bonuses Vs. 2 extra feats/more HP?

I appreciate kmonster's suggestion of taking a Bard. But I don't like escort missions, and to me taking a Bard would make the game one huge escort mission . I don't want to have any characters that I have to excessively babysit and have run away from enemies or coddle when I get ambushed by hook horrors over and over and over XD.

 

Bards require a certain playstyle to be effective, and this isn't to everyone's liking. I found that the bard is a very useful addition to a 6 member party, and doesn't require coddling - you can see it more as a free decoy, that doesn't have to stop doing what it does best (for all other characters this is combat/spellcasting) when it runs around as a decoy. Regeneration at 3HP/round and +2 generic armour class for the entire party, 'castable' unlimited even while the bard is being chased around, is not to be sneezed at in normal mode. In HoF, the +1 luck +3 saves song becomes more effective. But enough about bards.

I thought you would be going for your original idea of ftr4/transmuterX, because you still seem hung up on the extra feats fighters get.
Ftr2/Rgr1/Sorc X: 2 feats, 2 hitpoints.
Pal1/Mnk1/Rgr1/Sorc X: +your CHA modifier to saves! Evasion (+ high DEX!!!)

Spoiler

, +1STR +1WIS in game

If you make your character Lawful Good, you can potentially be both, taking the other 2 mix-in levels later if desired.

If your sorcerer is human, you don't need 12INT to get 2 skillpoints/level, and can dump INT, earning you 9 more ability points, to take in STR or CON... And yes, it will outshine the druid and conjurer, but with sorcerers that's hard to avoid.

 

I guess I could always try a Bard and if it turns out I don't like it, add the Sorc and cheat his XP to the same XP level as the rest of the party .

I suppose I just thought that taking some gimped version of a Sorc over the ftr4/transmuterX would be better specifically for this party, because I don't want to run into a situation where I have to choose who gets to scribe Stoneskin or some other important defensive self-only buff. It's been ages since I've played the game, and I really can't remember just how many duplicates there were. Faced with the likely eventuality that this character would have such a limited spellbook as to hardly be useful, I got to thinking that a Sorcerer would be a better option. The +INT items are something I hadn't considered, but also lead me to think that the Sorc is better suited to the party. Oh and the fact that this character has a small selection of spells that he would want to use more often.

Hmm.. considering the fact that this character wouldn't be wearing armor, what about something like a Monk 3/Ranger 1/Sorcerer X? I'm starting to like the idea of an arcane spell sword lol.

 

I don't know why you think bards are vulnerable. They get more hitpoints than mages and can have armor spells cast on them or protect themselves with mirror images just like mages can. I never had trouble keeping my bard alive and thanks to the bard script she required less micromanaging than the other party members, she even started singing the level 3 song on her own and got the other party back to action when they were fleeing in terror, she rather was the babysitter than the baby.

Bards don't require a special playstyle to be effective, you just have to let them sing.

 

Going back to the original 4: They seem quite good for a regular game. You would do fine with just them!

If you want 6, I'd add a Bard (Drow) and a Sorcerer. If you're powergaming, follow the above advice for a Human. If you are powergaming and plan on doing HoF, pick Drow and get used to squatting.

 

As far as bard's spell progression: they start with a setback, which gets worse over time, just what you want, right? Wizards get level 9 spells by level 17, while bards get their first level 8 spell at level 26! So your bard probably won't ever get to those high level spells (won't get more than level 5, maybe 6), but the buffing songs are well worth it, and add some charm and extra tactics to your game.

I'll be offline for the rest of the night, so I just want to wish everybody a HAPPY NEW YEAR!

EDIT: forgot to answer this question:

Since a sorcerer will have low wisdom, the monk doesn't add anything to your armour atall. And because the monk and ranger levels are more than 1 level apart here, you'll get a 20% XP penalty. If you're worried about armour class, see if you can find a good shield with only 5% spell failure, then take an Armoured Arcana feat; it works in conjunction with the Mage Armour or Shield spell (meaning you get both bonuses to armour). The two extra monk levels don't add anything worthwhile.

 

Great, so we went from having a character that needed to be excessively micromanaged, to one that is essentially a walking buff .

What I was looking for is a setback that would allow the use of non-redundant spells (Evocation) without becoming a powerhouse or a crutch. Actually, this was secondary to having a workable, archetypal archer character (RP), as none of the other characters in the party would have much of a use for bows, if they could even use them. So I figured a hybrid that took care of both of these "needs" would be the best compromise.

I was reading your guide, and saw your rundown of number of spells in each school that a given class receives. The Bard has mostly Enchantment spells, and you even recommend taking GSF: Enchantment with one. The Bard also has thief skills as class skills. Sound familiar? Aside from his songs, this is basically my Rogue 1/Enchanter X (Who I am in fact planning on taking GSF: Enchantment with), with songs in place of a large and versatile spellbook. So much for the Enchanter feeling unique . (Before you suggest that I replace the Enchanter with the Bard, remember that I wanted my Enchanter [RP] to be both the primary thief, and arcane spellcaster) That isn't to say that a Bard wouldn't be useful for his songs alone, just that after reading from your guide it appears there is a lot of redundancy here.

Yes, a little while after I posted that I messed with the stats in creation and realized I would have no points to put into wisdom to get the AC bonus.

 

Bards are very useful, you're really missing out if you don't take one along. My bard is more into buffs than enchantments, but when she does cast them, they work well. Another positive side to bards, is that they memorize potential level 2, 3 and 4 spells, while if your wizard did this, it would cost them directly in castings of Mirror Image, Fireball/Skull Trap, and Stoneskins: A bard's Cat's Grace can buff the gang up, leaves wiz/sorcs with more lvl2 slots, and extra Mirror Images will be lifesaving when tackling powerful monsters with uncomon tactics. It can handle Magic Circle vs. Evil and Emotion: Hope at level 3, leaving clerics free to Animate Dead, and wiz/sorcs can Stoneskin. At level 4 the useful Improved Invisibility doesn't cost you in stoneskins either. All in all, bards give you a potential doubling of many important buffs, more than their limited spell slots would indicate.

I'm glad you took some time to peruse my guide, I've gathered enough notes to make a version 3.1 in a month or so. Almost all of what I'm saying can be found in there in some form or other, and I'm still trying to improve its 'readability'. Let me know if you have any questions or suggestions.
I thought you wanted a rogue 1/conjurer X? Either way Evocation is your barred school. Some important spells for your additional mage to take: Chromatic Orb w/GSF: Evocation to paralyze enemies quick and effective (often better than Charm Person, because it affects large creatures, and they can take damage and still be held), Fireball (good damage to enemies, there are other lvl3 Evocations that a wizard can scribe too), Delayed Blast Fireball is perhaps the best lvl7 spell. I guess when it comes down to it, there aren't any essential evocations, but life will be harder without them.

 

I get it, Bards are very helpful as support characters that allow the party to adapt to a given situation. They are like water that flows into the gaps that appear in the party . Keep in mind though that I do have the Cleric and the Druid for both healing, and buffs like Cat's Grace (which the Druid now has via Ease-of-Use)

It was actually funny how I found your guide. I came back to the forum a week or so ago and was reading the big list of mod's here, didn't notice who had made the thread though, until I saw your name in the guide (which is linked in that thread), and was like "whoa wait a minute, that is the guy who made all those posts in my thread!"

I think we're starting to go in circles here. I feel dizzy lol. We've been over that it was originally a Rogue 1/Conjurer X, and that I changed it to Enchanter to better reflect what I want out of the character. Either way they are functionally the same, as you said, both have Evocation as their barred school. So you just illustrated how some Evocation spells would put the cap on this party nicely. Is the Bard capable of casting those spells at a reasonable level, or are we back to the Ftr2/Rgr1/SorcX? (or to kmonster feeling that a Bard would be much more useful for this party than the non-essential evocations)

 

Bards can never learn bombarding spells, so if you have to cast five fireballs per day look elsewhere. Bards are singers, their songs so powerful that I sometimes think they'd be more popular if they wouldn't be able to cast any spells at all.

 

Cat's Grace with your druid will cost you Barkskins. Barkskins can only be cast on all of the party at the start of each day, but they keep everyone safer from melee damage for a long time. But if you save them for frontliners only, they'd last longer. Anyway, the best buff spell a druid gets is Stoneskin. Some other things are nice, but they're not groundbreaking. I describe a complicated way in my guide, for how to get Tremor at lvl8 and maybe Stoneskin at lvl5, from the Upgraded Classes component in Light of Selune, without having to put up with the many disadvantages of the component. It involves installing it later, picking those spells, and uninstalling the component, basically. Complicated, but worth it!

Yes, I was the guy who made the big list of mods and advice on the top of this forum page, which you read, and I made sure my own guide was mentioned multiple times in there. It's probably the most relevant thing about IWD2 modding on the net anyway. I was proud when it got stickied soon afterwards.

 

If you think of a Bard as a substitute for a Mage, you're playing the wrong game. They can reasonably accomplish this in BG and IWD1, but not IWD2.

That being said, they can make for a very awesome addition to any party.

IMHO, 4 levels of Fighter, just to get Weapon Specialization, really isn't worth it. It's not that great a feat. I like 1 or 2 level dips in the class for all of the weapon and armor feats, and the extra feats of your choice.

 

I wasn't thinking that the Bard would be a good substitute for a mage. I had thought coine might have been inferring that, which is why I questioned if the Bard could fill that role.

This basically suggests that the Bard is a viable replacement for the Fighter 4/Wizard X, but I saw later that he meant it in the sense that the Bard is a gimped mage, not that he could act as a sniper/bombardier like the Fighter 4/Wizard X.

I think we've done all we can with an untested party at this point. Thanks everyone for sticking with me throughout. The next step will be for me to play around with this party, and try out the Bard, as well as the Ftr/Rgr/Sorc, and see which I prefer through firsthand experience.

I'm actually a bit hesitant to even try a Pal1/Mnk1/Rgr1/SorcX, because the saving throws and evasion, coupled with the BAB (toward Weapon Focus: Bows) and arsenal of Evocation spells, would effectively make this character superior to the Rogue 1/Enchanter X (who takes Weapon Focus: Crossbows) from both a defensive and offensive standpoint. Of course, the Sorc still wouldn't even come close to scratching the Enchanter's utility/support capabilities, but a powerhouse is a powerhouse . It's too bad, because that Sorc sounds like so much fun...

 

It's a nice combo (I guess), but if you're going to use missile weapons, the Ranger level does nothing for you.

I personally don't recommend "a dip" into the Monk class unless you plan on maximizing your WIS. It works with a Druid though (I played a Cleric of Bane 1/Monk 1/ Druid X once and it was pretty good).

If you really want a pure spellcaster, your best bet is to make him a pure spellcaster.

If you really want to dip into other classes with that pure spellcaster, do it after level 20 in that spellcasting class (IOW, it'll have to be in HoF mode).

My personal rule of thumb is this:

Make spellcasters PURE spellcasters. Let your tanks mess around with other class dips. Of course, there are exceptions (the Drow Rogue 1/Wizard X is a great build... IF he isn't your only spellcaster).

BTW, if you find room for a Monk (DG is definitely my favorite!), treat him like a spellcaster too.

 

The Ranger level allows for dual wielding, as well as access to a Ranger-only bow added in the Light of Selune mod.

Actually my party was designed the way it was specifically because I don't want a pure (arcane) spellcaster. From an RP perspective, I just don't like them that much.

 

The ranger level also gives favorite enemy, a nice little plus,

I do not play pure class characters as well, I just love creating combo's. One of my favorite combos is Drow (female) Fighter (2), Monk (3), Cleric (x) with Bull Strength and Cats Grace, dual wielding maces and short swords. She hits a lot, and seldom gets hit.

My other favorite is Deep Gnome Rogue (2), Monk (3), Illusionist (x). This fellow, with his race's invisibility and mirror image, is my scout/decoy. He doesn't get hit, and loves to drop a Fireball or potion of explosions right at his feet,

The character I'm trying now is a Human Ranger (2), Monk (3), and Druid (x) dual wielding scimitars and short swords. So far, he is doing as well as the Drow Fighter/Monk/Cleric, but without the 2 level penalty, and with Barkskin,

 

I'm playing one now, and 'pretty good' is an understatement: I haven't even gotten the half-dragon shapeshift forms yet, and she's already kicking-butt-for-goodness as a Remorhaz. Technichally, she kicks butt for lawful neutrality. She owned the 8 chambers single-handedly, and I mean that literally: The Remorhaz and Wyvern shapes have attacks that are considered 2-handed, so Morohem wouldn't let me in, because I wasn't registering as 'unarmed'. But the Fomorian Giant's single-handed attack was very hard-hitting, and the Damage Resistance was nice too. The 8 chambers in Tactics4IWD2 have an Antimagic Sphere cast on them, so casters can do sod all. Tricky, but fun!

I took Dreadmaster mix-ins with 3 of my characters just before entering the Z'hinda Citadel (in anticipation of a long-awaited quest bonus): my druid, my illusionist and my bard. You can imagine that the +2 to fortitude and will saves come in really handy against those illithids.